Author Topic: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?  (Read 8613 times)

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Offline clickclack123

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Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« on: Thu, 09 January 2014, 17:37:54 »
I'm getting an ergodox, and planning to use it to learn stenography using Plover.

Is anyone using this setup and can comment on how well it works?

Obviously NKRO will need to work for chorded typing. I know NKRO is meant to work, but are there any problems with ergodox regarding this?

Offline Elktro

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 12 January 2014, 13:06:00 »
I guess I read your mind as I am considering to do exactly the same thing. The Ergodox keyboard would be nice as then you would be able to use it as a regular keyboard along with plover. But before I make the purchase I too would really like to know how well does the NRKO work. The longest (mis)stroke that I found in the plover dictionary was 14 keypresses long (STKPWHRAOEUPBS: guidelines), so in practice NRKO is needed.

I have already tried plover for some time using Microsoft's sidewinder keyboard, but the problem has been that I have really hard time when I try to hit the middle positions especially for DZ, TS and LG. I have not bothered to buy the keypads that are sold for plover though. Have you given a thought which keypads would be the best considering that you need to press two keys with one finger?

What about the stenosaurus? Have you considered to get it when it will be available?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 12 January 2014, 14:25:17 »
here's the thing.. is steno would be a huge investment in "learning" in terms of hours..

if it's not your occupation.. I don't see that paying off much at all.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 12 January 2014, 17:14:58 »
Obviously NKRO will need to work for chorded typing. I know NKRO is meant to work, but are there any problems with ergodox regarding this?
The stock ErgoDox firmware has 6KRO over USB, because it uses PRJC's USB routines which uses the "boot protocol" which has this limitation.
To get full NKRO, you could use Hasu's tmk_keyboard firmware which has support for ErgoDox, but it requires that you build it yourself and some simple C programming to change the layout.

6KRO in this case means that it supports a chord with up to six keys where none is a modifier. The modifiers (Ctrl, Shift, Alt, Windows/Command) will always be recognized because they are separate in this protocol.
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Offline jabar

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 12 January 2014, 17:38:12 »
not to mention that the muscle memory in a real steno board will be completely different from repurposing an ergodox
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Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 12 January 2014, 17:46:31 »
here's the thing.. is steno would be a huge investment in "learning" in terms of hours..

if it's not your occupation.. I don't see that paying off much at all.

From what I've read, people get to an average of 120wpm in one semester of learning. I've been using the dvorak layout for 10 years and I'm 70-80wpm. Enjoy your slow typing tp4tissue, I'm not scared to learn something new. I find my brain is always way ahead of my typing and it ruins the flow when I'm writing. "Paying off" in my case would be removing this impediment. I watched some youtube vids of people using Plover and was sold immediately. Why should we have to type every letter if the pc is smart enough to spell out the word for us?

I guess I read your mind as I am considering to do exactly the same thing. The Ergodox keyboard would be nice as then you would be able to use it as a regular keyboard along with plover. But before I make the purchase I too would really like to know how well does the NRKO work. The longest (mis)stroke that I found in the plover dictionary was 14 keypresses long (STKPWHRAOEUPBS: guidelines), so in practice NRKO is needed.

I have already tried plover for some time using Microsoft's sidewinder keyboard, but the problem has been that I have really hard time when I try to hit the middle positions especially for DZ, TS and LG. I have not bothered to buy the keypads that are sold for plover though. Have you given a thought which keypads would be the best considering that you need to press two keys with one finger?

What about the stenosaurus? Have you considered to get it when it will be available?

Damn, I actually didn't realize that you need to hold two keys at once with a single finger. I've only done the first lesson here, then got frustrated with how uncomfortable it was holding my thumbs so close to the home row and decided to wait until I get my ergodox to do more.

50728-0

The keys seem so widely spaced on the Stenosaurus, how would you hold two at once? Do you only need to hold two keys along the columns, maybe? I did read something about square cherry MX keycaps, I'll try and find that later but not sure I'll be able to find it, might be hard to search for. I may ask the gurus in the keycap forum later. I'm kind of happy that my ergodox will have brown switches now, should be very easy to hold two down at once with browns...

I did notice from some of the pics that Mirabai posted of the prototype stenosaurus that it used Cherry MX blues.

You could probably dremel and glue up something that works ok for square caps. The ergodox is so customizable that I can't imagine there's many problems that couldn't be adequately solved with a bit of ingenuity.

I had considered the stenosaurus but I thought that it would be limited compared to the ergodox for my purposes. The ergodox has totally customizable layouts which is great. It looks more comfortable than the Stenosaurus to me. Any computer that I'd be using could have the Plover software installed, so I don't really need to have the steno "brains" in the keyboard itself.

Also the Stenosaurus isn't available yet, which is kind of a dealbreaker!! When I look at the blog at http://stenosaurus.blogspot.com.au/, it doesn't even sound like it's close. They've only just worked out how to load a bootloader by 22nd December 2013. I did see a video on youtube showing the stenosaurus "speaking it's first words", just typing "Plover" into a notepad window when a button is pushed. I noticed that the Plover software was running on the machine though, so the stenosaurus wasn't doing qwerty output, the pc was the "brains". So to my mind, the stenosaurus seems pretty far off.

Stenosaurus would be cool because it can work with any computer without having to install the Plover software though. If I end up becoming attached to steno, which I think I will, I will probably end up buying one anyway.

I should hopefully have my ergodox set up in three weeks time, waiting on parts to arrive atm. I'll try to remember to let you know how it goes. Like I said, I'm a newbie to steno but I'll start on more lessons as soon as it's all set up.

Obviously NKRO will need to work for chorded typing. I know NKRO is meant to work, but are there any problems with ergodox regarding this?
The stock ErgoDox firmware has 6KRO over USB, because it uses PRJC's USB routines which uses the "boot protocol" which has this limitation.
To get full NKRO, you could use Hasu's tmk_keyboard firmware which has support for ErgoDox, but it requires that you build it yourself and some simple C programming to change the layout.

6KRO in this case means that it supports a chord with up to six keys where none is a modifier. The modifiers (Ctrl, Shift, Alt, Windows/Command) will always be recognized because they are separate in this protocol.

I should be ok getting hasu's firmware to work. I have no problem editing some layout files. I'm sure there'll be ok documentation.

not to mention that the muscle memory in a real steno board will be completely different from repurposing an ergodox

That's ok for me because I have no real steno board to have muscle memory for! So I'm starting from scratch! I'll just set it up how I want and change anything that I feel is necessary. that's the advantage in my mind of the ergodox.
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 January 2014, 18:13:24 by clickclack123 »

Offline Elktro

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 13 January 2014, 13:12:35 »
here's the thing.. is steno would be a huge investment in "learning" in terms of hours..

if it's not your occupation.. I don't see that paying off much at all.

Well yes, you are quite right that the learning curve is quite high for steno, and it can take a while before you master it. It depends quite a loton which theory is used to learn steno.

Still I would not say that only court reporters or captioners benefit from steno. Also programmers and persons that need to write a lot and fast may benefit from steno. Of course you can learn it just for fun.

not to mention that the muscle memory in a real steno board will be completely different from repurposing an ergodox

Actually if you use the backspace, delete, return and space as the vowels and home row and top row for the consonants the ergobox resembles quite a lot standard steno keyboard.



The keys seem so widely spaced on the Stenosaurus, how would you hold two at once? Do you only need to hold two keys along the columns, maybe?


Yes. If you need to press two adjacent keys on a column you flatten your finger little bit and position it on the gap between the keys. Some theories include also combinations like *R and SZ which require pressing keys on adjacent rows. For this you need widened * and DZ keys which as I have understood will be made available for the stenosaurus additionally to the regural keys.

You could probably dremel and glue up something that works ok for square caps. The ergodox is so customizable that I can't imagine there's many problems that couldn't be adequately solved with a bit of ingenuity.

I should hopefully have my ergodox set up in three weeks time, waiting on parts to arrive atm. I'll try to remember to let you know how it goes. Like I said, I'm a newbie to steno but I'll start on more lessons as soon as it's all set up.

I should be ok getting hasu's firmware to work. I have no problem editing some layout files. I'm sure there'll be ok documentation.


Please, do let us know if you get the NKRO working. Also photo of your ergodox would be nice if you make any mods to it.


Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 13 January 2014, 16:13:23 »
Well yes, you are quite right that the learning curve is quite high for steno, and it can take a while before you master it. It depends quite a loton which theory is used to learn steno.

Still I would not say that only court reporters or captioners benefit from steno. Also programmers and persons that need to write a lot and fast may benefit from steno. Of course you can learn it just for fun.

Which theory is used for Plover, and would you say it is a hard or easy one to learn compared to others?

Quote
Yes. If you need to press two adjacent keys on a column you flatten your finger little bit and position it on the gap between the keys. Some theories include also combinations like *R and SZ which require pressing keys on adjacent rows. For this you need widened * and DZ keys which as I have understood will be made available for the stenosaurus additionally to the regural keys.

I imagine there would be quite a large torsional force on the switches with such wide keys on it. I wonder how smoothly the switches would work on the stenosaurus with those wider keys.

With square keys on an ergodox, it should be very easy to hold down two adjacent keys using the one finger.

BTW I tried holding down two keys with the one finger on my CM Quickfire TK with brown switches, and it is very easy to do this, the browns have such a low activation force. I think this would be easy to do with the ergodox assuming it also had brown switches. Super easy with square keys.
Quote
You could probably dremel and glue up something that works ok for square caps. The ergodox is so customizable that I can't imagine there's many problems that couldn't be adequately solved with a bit of ingenuity.

I should hopefully have my ergodox set up in three weeks time, waiting on parts to arrive atm. I'll try to remember to let you know how it goes. Like I said, I'm a newbie to steno but I'll start on more lessons as soon as it's all set up.

I should be ok getting hasu's firmware to work. I have no problem editing some layout files. I'm sure there'll be ok documentation.


Please, do let us know if you get the NKRO working. Also photo of your ergodox would be nice if you make any mods to it.

I doubt I'll do too many mods to it but I will probably be so happy it's done that I'll want to post pics anyway.  :D
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 January 2014, 16:17:51 by clickclack123 »

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 15 January 2014, 07:00:13 »
I bought a cheap "Cherry MX Board 2.0" to harvest the switches from as it was the cheapest board I could find with browns. Actually it was cheaper than buying the switches from 7bit's GB.

It has caps that are all the same profile, and a very close height to DSA.

Anyway I bought the board to get the keycaps from it basically for free with the switches (if you don't count what could be hours of desoldering work and burnt fingers for me).

Interestingly regarding the steno pressing two adjacent keys, see these pics:

50986-0

50988-1

50990-2

I've flipped the "4" key over, so it now lines up very well with the top of the 1 key. With browns and these caps, it is super easy to press these keys together.

I reckon the ergodox will be excellent for steno, assuming I can get hasu's fw with nkro working well..

Offline Oobly

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 15 January 2014, 07:48:01 »
http://www.pimpmykeyboard.com/marketplace.php#

There are some flat square keys near the bottom of the page. They should work okay for pressing adjacent keys. I think the ErgoDox is a good candidate for this.
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Offline wuqe

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 16 January 2014, 13:58:28 »
I've been using Plover with my Ergodox for a few months now, and it works like a charm. I'm currently typing about 40 words a minute, slower than previously, but it is a lot of fun, and I can see upside in my future.

I'm using Hasu's TMK firmware with NKRO on, and a custom layer that maps the default Plover keys onto the home row and bottom row, plus the thumb keys, of course. Diagram attached.

I would love some of those flat keys; at two bucks a pop, though, that's fifty dollars to outfit all the keys I'm using for Plover. (Group buy, anyone?)

Offline Squeaky Wheel

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 22 January 2014, 18:43:50 »
If someone wants to make one for me (with hasu's TMK firmware for full NKRO), I'll totally buy it.

Offline wuqe

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 11:58:24 »
For my setup, here's the extra layer to add to the keymap_x.h file (I started from cub-uanic's layout and went from there).

Code: [Select]
    KEYMAP(  // layer: Plover
        // left hand
        FN6, NO,  NO,  NO,  NO,  NO,  NO, 
        NO,  1,   2,   3,   4,   5,   NO, 
        NO,  Q,   W,   E,   R,   T, 
        NO,  A,   S,   D,   F,   G,   NO,
        NO,  NO,  NO,  NO,  NO, 
                                      FN6, NO, 
                                           NO, 
                                 C,   V,   NO, 
        // right hand
             NO,  NO,  NO,  NO,  NO,  NO,  TRNS,
             NO,  6,   7,   8,   9,   0,   TRNS,
                  Y,   U,   I,   O,   P,   LBRC,
             NO,  H,   J,   K,   L,   SCLN,QUOT,
                       TRNS,TRNS,NO,  NO,  NO, 
        TRNS,TRNS, 
        TRNS, 
        NO,  N,   M   
    ),

I tried to map to the default Plover keys so I wouldn't have to custom-compile my own Plover from source.

More info and links on putting TMK onto Ergodox:

More
The FN6 button in my layout turns off the Plover layer so I can get back to normalcy.

My full layout is available at https://github.com/simonmelhart/tmk_keyboard/blob/simon_layout/keyboard/ergodox/keymap_simon.h

Official documentation: https://github.com/cub-uanic/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/build.md

TMK on Ergodox thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48106.0

Offline Squeaky Wheel

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 17:24:34 »
...and you really do have full NKRO on this thing?

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 17:53:34 »
For my setup, here's the extra layer to add to the keymap_x.h file (I started from cub-uanic's layout and went from there).

Code: [Select]
    KEYMAP(  // layer: Plover
        // left hand
        FN6, NO,  NO,  NO,  NO,  NO,  NO, 
        NO,  1,   2,   3,   4,   5,   NO, 
        NO,  Q,   W,   E,   R,   T, 
        NO,  A,   S,   D,   F,   G,   NO,
        NO,  NO,  NO,  NO,  NO, 
                                      FN6, NO, 
                                           NO, 
                                 C,   V,   NO, 
        // right hand
             NO,  NO,  NO,  NO,  NO,  NO,  TRNS,
             NO,  6,   7,   8,   9,   0,   TRNS,
                  Y,   U,   I,   O,   P,   LBRC,
             NO,  H,   J,   K,   L,   SCLN,QUOT,
                       TRNS,TRNS,NO,  NO,  NO, 
        TRNS,TRNS, 
        TRNS, 
        NO,  N,   M   
    ),

I tried to map to the default Plover keys so I wouldn't have to custom-compile my own Plover from source.

More info and links on putting TMK onto Ergodox:

More
The FN6 button in my layout turns off the Plover layer so I can get back to normalcy.

My full layout is available at https://github.com/simonmelhart/tmk_keyboard/blob/simon_layout/keyboard/ergodox/keymap_simon.h

Official documentation: https://github.com/cub-uanic/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/build.md

TMK on Ergodox thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48106.0

Thanks so much for all the info! That's exactly what I need for when my ergodox arrives!


NKRO is supposed to work on ergodox when running this firmware.
...and you really do have full NKRO on this thing?

I haven't got my ergodox yet, but I know it's meant to work. I do notice though that at https://github.com/cub-uanic/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/build.md, it has:
Code: [Select]
2. Features

Optional. Note that comment out to disable them.
#NKRO_ENABLE = yes          # USB Nkey Rollover - not yet supported in LUFA

So I guess you need to not be running LUFA and nkro is turned off by default. Maybe someone who's done it can comment (wuqe?).

Offline wuqe

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 24 January 2014, 09:50:01 »
That is probably right. I'm on the PJRC stack and haven't tried LUFA.

Once you turn on NKRO_ENABLE, you can turn on NKRO with shift+ shift+N. Alternatively, you can edit common/host.c and set keyboard_nkro to true by default, so it starts up in NKRO. I haven't had any compatibility problems.

Changelist for that: https://github.com/simonmelhart/tmk_keyboard/commit/b8375

ETA: NKRO proof pic from http://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/content/projects/KeyboardGhostingDemo.aspx (sorry, but I could only get one hand's worth of NKRO and still press Print Screen. :)
« Last Edit: Fri, 24 January 2014, 11:12:08 by wuqe »

Offline Squeaky Wheel

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 25 January 2014, 08:19:09 »
This is amazing. Typing done right. Want!!!!

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 28 January 2014, 08:30:10 »
That is probably right. I'm on the PJRC stack and haven't tried LUFA.

Once you turn on NKRO_ENABLE, you can turn on NKRO with shift+ shift+N. Alternatively, you can edit common/host.c and set keyboard_nkro to true by default, so it starts up in NKRO. I haven't had any compatibility problems.

Is there any documentation that mentions the shortcuts like shift+shift+N? Other than just the mention in the comment for the changelist, that is? Also about how to use the debug modes where I presume the keyboard prints debugging messages into a notepad window or something.

I'm struggling a bit to work out how all the layout/matrix files fit together, I haven't done any c programming (done a fair bit of java). Not sure also what all the available keys in the layout file are (TRNS, BTN2, etc, etc).

I might understand more when I get my ergodox soon and I can start editing.

After you make your keymap_simon.h file, how do you tell it to actually use that file?

Offline wuqe

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 28 January 2014, 11:21:00 »
Is there any documentation that mentions the shortcuts like shift+shift+N? Other than just the mention in the comment for the changelist, that is?

Sure; everything's from Hasu's TMK firmware: https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard

cub-uanic ported it to Ergodox, so check his fork for a better 'Dox-friendly starting point: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48106.0

Here are some more items of interest in the TMK documentation:

On defining a keymap (complete with all available action codes): https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/keymap.md

Keycode list: https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/keycode.txt

On building and loading Teensy with the firmware: https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/build.md

The Shift+Shift combos list: https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard#magic-commands

To get debug output, you use PJRC's HIDListen program: http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/hid_listen.html

After you make your keymap_simon.h file, how do you tell it to actually use that file?

You add a reference to it in the keymap.c file, and then build it with an extra command line parameter. Here's my changelist for this: https://github.com/simonmelhart/tmk_keyboard/commit/72655e3

See also my customized Makefile: https://github.com/simonmelhart/tmk_keyboard/commit/36a4cd19597eb63e9

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 30 January 2014, 05:47:51 »
@wuqe Great info, should help a lot when I get my ergodox. Thanks so much!!

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 07 February 2014, 05:42:34 »
@wuqe I downloaded your firmware from https://github.com/shayneholmes/tmk_keyboard/archive/simon_layout.zip, unzipped it on my linux machine, then ran "sudo make teensy" to get the ergodox_pjrc.hex file.

NKRO doesn't seem to be working properly. Using Aqua's Keytest to check, when I hold down the four keys on the home row "ASDF", then press "X", the whole bottom row ZXCV shows up as being pressed. When this happens, hid_listen.exe shows the message "bounce!:02".

Do you see this happening? I thought NKRO should work with an unlimited number of keys without ghosting. NKRO is definitely active because I can toggle it with LShift+RShift+N.

???

53540-0

edit: the hex I made:* ergodox_pjrc.hex (63.26 kB - downloaded 51 times.)
« Last Edit: Fri, 07 February 2014, 06:48:40 by clickclack123 »

Offline wuqe

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 07 February 2014, 09:25:53 »
First off, congratulations on getting it to build! Your make command is probably giving you the default, qwerty layout, which is great for this testing.

The bounce message is probably a red herring; it is supposed to be for when a key goes down and up so quickly (2ms in this case) that the firmware ignores it.

From the diagram you showed, it is acting like there aren't even any diodes in the matrix. Does this hold for the right hand as well?

I'm not at my 'dox right now but will reply back once I get a chance to try out your firmware, just to verify that's not where the problem lies.

Offline wuqe

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 07 February 2014, 11:22:07 »
Okay, I took a look at the firmware on my device, and it looks just fine; I've attached the aqua screenshot.

If this behavior occurs throughout the keyboard, I'd check on the diodes; your screenshot makes it look like the pads below the switches are just jumped together. See http://deskthority.net/wiki/Rollover,_blocking_and_ghosting for more, including helpful diagrams of what's going on.

Also, I've attached a quick snapshot of what you're looking for on the board. The bottom pads are all wired together, so you might have different contacts used; my switches have diodes inside them and so use the top of of the three options.

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 07 February 2014, 19:07:04 »
Thanks again wuqe. I think I've done something stupid!  :-X

The switches that I'm using were harvested from a cheap Cherry MX Board 2.0. I bought this board so I'd get the low-profile caps basically for free for the cost of the switches. The place where the diodes are meant to be just have staples in them. They didn't even spring for the cost of diodes! I kept them in there just for physical support of the switches, not really thinking about the fact that this would effectively short out the diodes! I'll give all the staples a snip when I get home tonight. Might lube the large thumbswitches while I'm at it.

Actually I wonder if this might also be causing some other problems that I'm having.
« Last Edit: Fri, 07 February 2014, 19:20:57 by clickclack123 »

Offline wuqe

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 07 February 2014, 20:20:18 »
Glad you could identify the cause! Here's hoping your fix works great.

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 08 February 2014, 04:13:44 »
Yay! I think everything's working now!

Thanks so much for your great help, wuqe!!

I had to get the soldering stuff out again to replace a switch because I managed to ruin it by accidentally bending the inner switch contacts, but it's all good... I can't believe that was the problem, with all the desoldering/soldering and mucking around that I've done over the last week. You live and learn!

53634-0

I took a video of my method to get the switches open using two pairs of tweezers, I'll post it in another thread soon.

Lubing the thumbswitches seems to have made them a fair bit smoother now as well, which is nice.

Now to try to work out how to modify the layouts. Your layout file is so complicated!!

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 08 February 2014, 06:41:03 »
Oh bloody hell. It's doing the thumbkeys not working thing again.   :confused:

Oh well, nkro works now. I'm trying to order a new IO Expander now. Another week without a working Ergodox I guess.  :-[

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 08:23:33 »
My video of getting the switches open:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoaITYfZqjE

Anyone know how to embed the youtube video in a message?
« Last Edit: Sun, 09 February 2014, 08:30:36 by clickclack123 »

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 23 February 2014, 18:00:23 »
I would love some of those flat keys; at two bucks a pop, though, that's fifty dollars to outfit all the keys I'm using for Plover. (Group buy, anyone?)
http://www.pimpmykeyboard.com/marketplace.php#

There are some flat square keys near the bottom of the page. They should work okay for pressing adjacent keys. I think the ErgoDox is a good candidate for this.

Just came across some flat keycaps at http://www.buy2taobao.com/en/item/21214036093.html#.UwqCqs5Q7Ak, if anyone knows anything about buying from taobao, I'd probably also be interested in these.

55384-0

I'd much rather use the keys that I harvested from my Cherry MX Board 2.0, they feel great to me, but I don't have enough vertical 2u keys for all the thumbs, or 1.5u's for the sides.  :( I did read somewhere that optional keycap sets for these boards were/are available on taobao, I wish I could read chinese!

55386-1

Offline jameslr

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 24 February 2014, 08:12:23 »
Aren't these flat too?

http://keyshop.pimpmykeyboard.com/product/family-g20-esportsgaming

They're only $.70 each.
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 February 2014, 08:15:33 by jameslr »
CM Novatouch | Filco MJ2 TKL w/ HID Lib | REΛLFORCE 87U 55g | CM QFR

Offline Pandora

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 13 November 2014, 15:40:07 »
I've been using Plover with my Ergodox for a few months now, and it works like a charm. I'm currently typing about 40 words a minute, slower than previously, but it is a lot of fun, and I can see upside in my future.

I'm using Hasu's TMK firmware with NKRO on, and a custom layer that maps the default Plover keys onto the home row and bottom row, plus the thumb keys, of course. Diagram attached.

I would love some of those flat keys; at two bucks a pop, though, that's fifty dollars to outfit all the keys I'm using for Plover. (Group buy, anyone?)

I work as a transcriptionist and I've been waiting for somebody to do this. I'm wondering why you didn't just move everything over to the centre and have the asterisks on the four larger vertical keys?  It would seem to make more sense to me.

And from a non-tech standpoint, how difficult is it for the average person to program all this?

« Last Edit: Thu, 13 November 2014, 17:41:46 by Pandora »

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 13 November 2014, 16:13:13 »
I've been using Plover with my Ergodox for a few months now, and it works like a charm. I'm currently typing about 40 words a minute, slower than previously, but it is a lot of fun, and I can see upside in my future.

I'm using Hasu's TMK firmware with NKRO on, and a custom layer that maps the default Plover keys onto the home row and bottom row, plus the thumb keys, of course. Diagram attached.

I would love some of those flat keys; at two bucks a pop, though, that's fifty dollars to outfit all the keys I'm using for Plover. (Group buy, anyone?)

I'd work as a transcriptionist and I've been waiting for somebody to do this. I'm wondering why you didn't just move everything over to the centre and have the asterisks on the four larger vertical keys?  It would seem to make more sense to me.

And from a non-tech standpoint, how difficult is it for the average person to program all this?

I'm using the same setup as wuqe (a modified version of his layout, in fact).

I'd say that at the moment, realistically it is too difficult for the average person to set it up, with compiling firmware, etc. Or do you mean the average person on geekhack?

It would be made much simpler if somebody just shares their .hex file and then people can just download that and use it straight away. My layers are a bit of a mess at the moment though, so it wouldn't be great for people to use mine.

Offline Pandora

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 13 November 2014, 17:43:47 »
I mean the average person like myself who finally overcame their fear of programming the Ergodox.  Is there an easy way to load Plover
onto the Ergodox that a non-programmer could do?

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 13 November 2014, 19:44:43 »
I mean the average person like myself who finally overcame their fear of programming the Ergodox.  Is there an easy way to load Plover
onto the Ergodox that a non-programmer could do?

It depends.

By "programming the Ergodox", did you mean using the Massdrop configurator, or compiling from the TMK source? I found compiling the TMK source significantly more complicated than the configurator. You have to use TMK for NKRO to work. Massdrop's firmware is only 6KRO. TMK also has a lot more customization options like macros, etc.

You're not "loading Plover onto the Ergodox", Plover runs on the PC, the Ergodox is just set to wuqe's layout that he posted a picture of before that makes it work nicely with Plover.

The easy way that you ask for would be for someone else to compile it, and share the hex file. Then it would just be a matter of using teensyloader to put it onto the Ergodox, which anyone's capable of.

edit: check out these "Instructions on how to get a Plover keymap working with NKRO on ErgoDox keyboard". The instructions look pretty straightforward there. I had a fair few problems on the way to getting it to work, but I was piecing it together from all the info wuqe posted in this thread before, not in one single guide. Let us know if it worked for you if you do have a go.
« Last Edit: Thu, 13 November 2014, 20:09:44 by clickclack123 »

Offline Pandora

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #34 on: Sat, 31 January 2015, 10:48:26 »


I have both those files, but I don't understand what I'm supposed to do with them as far as building the firmware.
« Last Edit: Tue, 03 February 2015, 16:08:21 by Pandora »

Offline wuqe

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 04 February 2015, 08:54:28 »
Those files are the firmware. You already have it built. (Yay!) So, in the excellent how-toposted by ClickClack, you first make sure you have the Teensy loader, then go straight to step 4: Put the firmware on the Teensy chip. Note that this step mentions a .hex and a .eep file; those are the ones you have in hand!

Offline Pandora

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 04 February 2015, 12:49:31 »
Okay, that's what I thought, but I was making it harder, as usual.  ;)  I thought there was
more that I had to do. Thank you so much for your help.

Offline Pandora

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 04 February 2015, 12:50:18 »
Okay, I'm getting closer. I had two problems. One, my antivirus wasn't playing nice with the Plover.exe so I fixed that.  But I'm not understanding how I get the firmware file. I see them, but how I do I get them?
« Last Edit: Wed, 04 February 2015, 15:07:47 by Pandora »

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 04 February 2015, 16:51:34 »
Okay, I'm getting closer. I had two problems. One, my antivirus wasn't playing nice with the Plover.exe so I fixed that.  But I'm not understanding how I get the firmware file. I see them, but how I do I get them?

?? Where do you "see them"? Do you have the hex file on your pc?

Offline Pandora

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 04 February 2015, 20:57:22 »
I'm just going by that link that was provided where it shows the source and says how to build the firmware. There's an awful lot  of information there. Am I sounding confused LOL?
« Last Edit: Wed, 04 February 2015, 20:59:10 by Pandora »

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 05 February 2015, 02:33:06 »
I have both those files, but I don't understand what I'm supposed to do with them as far as building the firmware.

Like wuqe said, the hex file is the firmware. Teensy loader is the program that copies that hex file onto the ergodox. Just load them onto the ergodox using teensy loader. Also like wuqe said, you can skip almost all the steps once you have the firmware. You're almost there.

Offline Pandora

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 05 February 2015, 11:18:02 »
Yeah....I'm kind of thinking I don't have the files. Where exactly should I be looking for them? 
I'm sure when I actually get this figured out, I'll be wondering how the heck I missed it.  I'm
probably over thinking it.  The source file etc are there but do I have to do something with them?
Do I have to compile them into a hex file?
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 February 2015, 11:23:50 by Pandora »

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 09:14:21 »
Man, I'm trying not to be rude but I wish I had those simple instructions when I was working out how to do it. Wuqe was so helpful for me but it was still not spoonfed on a single page.

If you read the instructions they describe exactly how to get the source files and compile the firmware from those source files. Compiling is the process by which you generate the hex/eep machine code firmware that the Ergodox understands from the source files which a human (well, a programmer, anyway  :D) can understand. The files that you downloaded to your pc by doing a git clone will only be the source files.

If you can't find a file with the .hex extension and another with a .eep extension, then you haven't compiled the firmware successfully yet. I don't know what OS you're using, but I was using linux, and
Code: [Select]
find . -iname \*hex -or -iname \*eeplists every file ending in hex or eep below the current directory.

I would give you my hex/eep files but I use dvorak, plus I have some weirdness in my layouts there also to workaround a hardware problem that is unique to my ergodox  :(.

I could do one for you at some future time with a more standard layout but it won't be for a while. Maybe wuqe has one he could share if he's feeling generous?
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 February 2015, 09:34:20 by clickclack123 »

Offline Pandora

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 09:34:23 »
I'd like to learn to do it myself.  There's just so much information out there and everybody is being
very helpful. I understand your frustration. I just need to take the time (which I haven't had lately)
to sit down and go through it all. Just remember that something that looks straightforward to
somebody with knowledge of this stuff can be complete gibberish to another person.  I'll just
back up to the beginning of all of this and go through it again. Thank you again for all your help.

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 09:55:23 »
Yes, I completely understand.

Screw it, I just ran the commands. I had to change the first git clone command to
Code: [Select]
git clone https://github.com/shayneholmes/tmk_keyboard.gitto get it to work without some publickey error that I had to look up on stackoverflow, but other than that everything worked and it took about 2 minutes for me to copy and paste all the steps.

So if anyone needs the basic Plover firmware, here it is! Obviously you'll need to extract the zip.

I haven't tested this firmware at all, but I followed all the steps, so I don't see why it wouldn't be correct.
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 February 2015, 09:58:52 by clickclack123 »

Offline Pandora

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 13:56:02 »
 Wow, that was really nice of you to do that. It will help a lot of people. How do I use it now? 
 Is it on a different layer from qwerty?
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 February 2015, 14:07:09 by Pandora »

Offline wuqe

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 14:25:40 »
How do I use it now? 

You program it onto the Ergodox, and then you turn on the Plover layer. Then you launch the Plover program on your PC. Then you mash buttons madly.

Is it on a different layer from qwerty?

Per the excellent document linked by clickclack:

Quote from: the excellent document
You can toggle the Plover layer on and off by pressing the FN5 key. That's the left-thumb key above the "O" key in the diagram above.

Offline Pandora

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 14:49:24 »
Oh, my God!!! It's working. This is so cool. This will make my job so much
easier. I can't thank you enough.

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 21:05:10 »
Yay!!

Offline clickclack123

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Re: Ergodox with Plover/Chorded/Stenography?
« Reply #49 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 21:38:51 »
It's so cool when things come together like this. A group of people who've never met designed the ErgoDox together, hasu in Japan wrote the TMK firmware which was ported to the Ergodox by cub_uanic, wuqe made a layout to work with the Plover sw created for free by another group, someone else put up a page of instructions on how to compile it, I followed those instructions and shared the firmware, and now Pandora can play with his (or her?) own Steno-Dox!!

The internet rocks!
« Last Edit: Sat, 07 February 2015, 04:41:41 by clickclack123 »