Author Topic: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins  (Read 5959 times)

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Offline heedpantsnow

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Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 10:40:37 »
So I've been seeing all over the crazy return of investment on Bitcoin mining.  It's legal, it will probably be around for a while (certain industries have embraced it), and it centers on areas that I understand easily (math, crypto, and processing hardware).  The only wrinkle is that there is currently a 2-5 month wait time to get a dedicated machine, but many of them can break even after only 15-25 days depending on the price of kWh.

So, why shouldn't I get into this?  Why isn't everyone mining BC's right now?
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 10:43:00 »


just doge it!

Offline baldgye

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 10:46:55 »
Don't mine bitcoins.

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 10:53:55 »
It'd make more sense to trade them..  mining at this point is only for the people who are willing to drop 40k for the right machines.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 10:54:13 »
I would say go for it, but sell quickly. Once they start dropping in price they will never regain their value. There's really no reason not to take advantage of the tissue thin fake economy built around them, except for the cost of your personal free time.

Offline oNinjaDispatcho

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 11:03:19 »
From what I've heard from the bitcoin experts among my gaming friends is that at this point, it's not worth it.
First, like you said, there is too much risk of machines failing.
Also, the power consumption will land you with a giant electricity bill, with the exception of you being in college, at which point you better get going fast. Electricity wont be free forever.

A few of the guys I talked to had mined bitcoins back when they were about 2$ each, and now are lucky sons of ******s. Sadly for guys like us, it seems way too late to start mining now.

That is just what I have heard. I have no experience with bitcoins myself.
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Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 12:57:31 »
Bitcoin is pretty much impossible to make money on unless you get some serious ASIC hardware for free, and have cheap/free electricity. Mining litecoin and others may still be feasible to make a small profit on. I was looking into doing so myself... but my current nvidia gpu is rubbish for mining. So I would have to buy an AMD gpu. Looking ebay the AMD used market is totally silly... unless you can get really lucky you probably only save a small amount to get used. According to the calculator site, assuming I could get a 'good' price on a used 59*0/69*0/79*0 series card... it would be at least 4 months to pay for the card less monthly estimated electric cost and less pool/exchange service fees before actually making anything. That is also assuming the market stays at current or better exchange to real cash rates.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 12:58:01 »
Don't waste the resources...

A quote of mine from the other thread about cryptocurrency (edited to fix the math I got a bit wrong due to posting when tired):

"At a rough calculation for BitCoin, the current hash rate is around 10,000 Thash/s. There are 25 BitCoins issued per 10 minutes.
Hashes per BitCoin:
= (network hash rate) / (25 BTC per 10 minutes)
= (10,000 * Th / s) / (25 * BTC / (600 * s) )
= 10,000 * 600 / 25 * Th / s / BTC * s
= 240,000 Th / BTC
= 240,000,000,000,000,000 h/BTC

So 239,999,999,999,999,999 valid hashes (which meet the cryptographic requirements and can be used to secure a transaction) are calculated and discarded for every coin mined. Multiply by 25 for hashes discarded per one used since it's one block of 25 coins per hash and that's an efficiency of around 1.04x10-19. Statistically and practically 0.

My point is simply that all that calculation, all those CPU and GPU cycles and all that power should be used for SOMETHING.

I'm just saying that the difficulty associated with creating the currency is artificial and could be any arbitrary "work" as long as there is some valid way of proving that the "work" was done.

It doesn't have to have anything to do with the currency itself. It could even be, heaven forbid, REAL work that people do to create some product or service, but that's a bit hard to find proof for. It's the thing that should give currency it's real value (as in, "this is what I would give you for that thing")."

TLDR; All the current cryptocurrencies that I know of waste your computers time calculating data that is discarded simply to provide a proof that some form of "work" was done so they can adjust the generation rate of the "coins". Wait until CureCoin is running so you can do something useful with all those CPU / GPU cycles (they use folding@home for proof of work) instead of wasting power.
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Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 13:05:57 »
I had kept wondering why no one was smart enough to give coin for doing something that is actually more useful like FaH... I will have to keep an eye out for that. That would also be nice for nvidia owner, since there is not such a huge disparity with FaH vs AMD.
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 January 2014, 13:08:24 by IvanIvanovich »

Offline oNinjaDispatcho

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 13:08:16 »
Don't waste the resources...

A quote of mine from the other thread about cryptocurrency (edited to fix the math I got a bit wrong due to posting when tired):

"At a rough calculation for BitCoin, the current hash rate is around 10,000 Thash/s. There are 25 BitCoins issued per 10 minutes.
Hashes per BitCoin:
= (network hash rate) / (25 BTC per 10 minutes)
= (10,000 * Th / s) / (25 * BTC / (600 * s) )
= 10,000 * 600 / 25 * Th / s / BTC * s
= 240,000 Th / BTC
= 240,000,000,000,000,000 h/BTC

So 239,999,999,999,999,999 valid hashes (which meet the cryptographic requirements and can be used to secure a transaction) are calculated and discarded for every coin mined. Multiply by 25 for hashes discarded per one used since it's one block of 25 coins per hash and that's an efficiency of around 1.04x10-19. Statistically and practically 0.

My point is simply that all that calculation, all those CPU and GPU cycles and all that power should be used for SOMETHING.

I'm just saying that the difficulty associated with creating the currency is artificial and could be any arbitrary "work" as long as there is some valid way of proving that the "work" was done.

It doesn't have to have anything to do with the currency itself. It could even be, heaven forbid, REAL work that people do to create some product or service, but that's a bit hard to find proof for. It's the thing that should give currency it's real value (as in, "this is what I would give you for that thing")."

TLDR; All the current cryptocurrencies that I know of waste your computers time calculating data that is discarded simply to provide a proof that some form of "work" was done so they can adjust the generation rate of the "coins". Wait until CureCoin is running so you can do something useful with all those CPU / GPU cycles (they use folding@home for proof of work) instead of wasting power.

That's very interesting, and yes, I'll keep and eye out too.

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Offline heedpantsnow

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 13:33:52 »
I've read that other thread with intense interest.  You guys all have made some valid points.  Keep 'em coming!

Here's some links; feel free to discuss:
that other thread:  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53106.30
interesting chart on ROI (is it correct??): http://minr.info/
beginner's guide:  https://www.weusecoins.com/en/
BTC news:  http://www.coindesk.com/
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Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 13:44:31 »
Ha, see exactly... unless you can get those ASIC for free, it's over 1 year before you even MIGHT break even since it's all assumption the market won't totally crash. Anything that have a supposed fast return on investment is not even really exist.

Offline missalaire

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 13:48:27 »
Bitcoin mining isn't worth it anymore.
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Offline Tym

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 13:50:30 »


Yeah... This :3
unless they have some unforeseeable downside (like they're actually made of cream cheese cunningly disguised as ABS)


Offline Puddsy

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 16:16:28 »
Mine Doge, not BTC

Doge is skyrocketing, and you can get BTC with it.
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Offline meiosis

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 17:45:35 »
Mine Doge, not BTC

Doge is skyrocketing, and you can get BTC with it.

When I calculated it a week ago, buying dogecoin was cheaper then mining it then a week ago it skyrocketed so it's definitely worth it now.. but for how long :o
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Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 18:20:38 »
As with all speculation, there is risk of holding onto something in hopes it becomes more valuable at a later time. Sometime it become less value or even of zero value. If I start mining anything, I would most likely look at using one of set up that autosells say like 75% of your wallet. At least that way you can assure yourself you make X to at least cover electricity cost and such. Then if value goes up you have some to sell high... and if value goes down or to zero at least you made money while you could.

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Offline jasondecos

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 18 January 2019, 08:14:10 »
If you look at the trends it will be alone convince you not to mine it.
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 18 January 2019, 09:05:19 »
Too bad dogecoin never took off.

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« Last Edit: Fri, 18 January 2019, 09:07:43 by SpAmRaY »

Offline katushkin

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 18 January 2019, 10:31:29 »
Hot damn the names in this thread.

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Offline yuppie

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 18 January 2019, 10:49:14 »
Too bad dogecoin never took off.

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I made some money from mining and trading Dogecoin. It hit 1cent a few times, which, if you had a **** ton of them, made any involvement worth it if you got out on time.



Dogecoin "took off" in the sense that it's probably the biggest meme coin to have ever lived.

I remember watching their Nascar in a legit race on TV once:





A few years ago it was pretty easy to just go on mcxnow or cryptsy and buy any coin, wait a few weeks and sell it.

Mining is a different story now. But back in 2014, if you were mining anything, it probably ended up being worth it (if you got out at the right time).
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 18 January 2019, 17:35:00 »
So, why shouldn't I get into this?  Why isn't everyone mining BC's right now?
The only reasonable argument for it:
Like to burn money or want to heat your house inefficiently? Mine Bitcoin!

The machine you want, by the time you get it, will take 2-3 years to pay itself off, and that is a best case scenario where coin stayed high. It hasn't and each coin becomes more and more difficult to mine.

Look around, while you will find success stories you will find more failure stories, and this applies to all coin mining. What even the "successful"  miners are not telling you is that almost all of their "profits" are being rolled back into the operation. The miners are spending almost everything they earn on electricity and buying more/newer equipment, they aren't pocketing much at all. They are chasing an ever increasingly difficult goal, with no end in sight, and it's all predicated on the idea that the coin will constantly go up in value, not down. The people who made big money on it are the ones who got in early and hung onto or forgot about their coins or mined for a short time while profits were high and sold out.

The only real money in it today is like Meiosis said, playing it like the stock market, buy low, sell high.
In this, you have no overhead, no bills. Your only risk is the money you have invested at the moment. Not thousands of dollars in a quickly depreciating mining rig that is costing a lot in electricity.
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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 18 January 2019, 19:04:32 »

The only real money in it today is like Meiosis said, playing it like the stock market, buy low, sell high.
In this, you have no overhead, no bills. Your only risk is the money you have invested at the moment. Not thousands of dollars in a quickly depreciating mining rig that is costing a lot in electricity.

Bit coin is not investing, it's gambling.. there's no actual work performed..

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 19 January 2019, 01:04:01 »

The only real money in it today is like Meiosis said, playing it like the stock market, buy low, sell high.
In this, you have no overhead, no bills. Your only risk is the money you have invested at the moment. Not thousands of dollars in a quickly depreciating mining rig that is costing a lot in electricity.

Bit coin is not investing, it's gambling.. there's no actual work performed..

All crypto is, as is much of the stock market.
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Offline JP

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 28 January 2019, 12:36:14 »
I did some Litecoin mining a few years ago. It was more of a hobby just to try it sort of thing. I had a 1250w power supply driving 2 high end AMD video cards. It took a lot of fiddling to get right. First issue was heat. I was doing this in the winter and kept my room as cold as I could stand and setup a bunch of fans to pull cold air in and push the hot air out. In my cold room the exhaust literally warmed my room. Once I thought all was well someone in the house would use a microwave or something and a breaker would of course trip. I told my dad it was probably my computer but he quickly dismissed it since he couldn't fathom that my system would be using that much juice. Long story short I gave that up and sold the video cards and broke even.
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Offline chuckdee

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Re: Convince me not to mine Bitcoins
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 28 January 2019, 13:37:44 »
Well, there's also the environmental considerations, if you take that into account.  To hell with the planet. Let's steal from the welfare of future generations to make magic Internet money.