What is the material that MX stems are made of?

[berserkfan]

I was wondering what material Cherry MX stems are made of.

I was thinking of improving on the Ghetto green concept. Getting MX blues, then dyeing them to make MX greens. Because MX greens are rare and expensive, although there isn't actually a real difference between MX greens and blues except in the easily-obtained springs.

[Skull_Angel]

I don't think anyone has been able to get Cherry Corp. to actually comment on what they use, but there are a few that seem to think they are POM (I would agree with my limited knowledge on the subject).

[IvanIvanovich]

Pretty sure it's ABS so I don't think you will have any success in dye the stems. If you really want green you can buy 100 pack at mechanicalkeyboards for like $50.

[Puddsy]

cherry says it's something they made themselves

[berserkfan]

Pretty sure it's ABS so I don't think you will have any success in dye the stems. If you really want green you can buy 100 pack at mechanicalkeyboards for like $50.

Yeah, i'm afraid of dyeing them and having them melt in my pot.

Greens are purely aesthetic. Don't really want to spend that extra money buying something I don't see except when I remove the stems.

[IvanIvanovich]

All Cherry says it is 'thermoplastic UL94HB' on the datasheets which can be one of a number of plastic formulations... ABS being one which I think it highly likely given it's ease to work with on injection molding and it being one of the least expensive.

[luisbg]

I'm sure they are going to hold onto that secret.

[tp4tissue]

They're made of god damn MAGIC is what...

[luisbg]

They're made of god damn MAGIC is what...

Show Image

Voodoo I tell you.

[Zeal]

Why doesn't someone bring some stems into a lab and analyze it?  (No clue what the cost of doing that is  )

[tp4tissue]

They're made of god damn MAGIC is what...

Show Image

Voodoo I tell you.

[CPTBadAss]

Why doesn't someone bring some stems into a lab and analyze it?  (No clue what the cost of doing that is  )

I've looked into it getting lab work done. The issue is that there are *tons* of formulations of different plastics, many of which could be proprietary blends or materials.

I think getting lab work done on that is around $100-200. I did a similar test in college with a metal sample. I'm not sure if plastics will cost more or less.

Edit: UL94HB is a Underwriter's Labratory test against flammability. Matweb spit out some results for UL94HB but the problem is a test doesn't narrow down the material field.

[mouse.the.lucky.dog]

Why not get a spare switch and try dyeing it?

[dorkvader]

Why doesn't someone bring some stems into a lab and analyze it?  (No clue what the cost of doing that is  )

I've looked into it getting lab work done. The issue is that there are *tons* of formulations of different plastics, many of which could be proprietary blends or materials.

I think getting lab work done on that is around $100-200. I did a similar test in college with a metal sample. I'm not sure if plastics will cost more or less.

Edit: UL94HB is a Underwriter's Labratory test against flammability. Matweb spit out some results for UL94HB but the problem is a test doesn't narrow down the material field.

one problem with polymers (and materials in general) is that there's so much there beyond just the composition. With metal, you can get a lot of what you need from spectroscopy and then following up with failure test and examining the break area with a SEM. If you want to go all-out, you can do some other things too.

For polymers, if you see what elements its made from, you'll only get a small part of the story, from what I was able to determine, it's a lot harder to get degree of polymerization / crosslinking / etc. info out of it, especially for blends and composites.

For example: there's tons of PC + ABS blends out there. Beyond the actual plastic composition, there's the polymerization of each, the fiber length / width, amount of it in the polymer matrix, even the orientation of the strands makes a huge difference. I'm pretty sure a lot of this is harder to get out of it, and gold / platinum coating it for expensive microscopy I don't think will tell you much.

I'll ask Dad about it at dinner: he specializes in polymers. I just know a little about nanoscale and powder characterization techniques. Polymers is a weak point of mine sadly

[CPTBadAss]

You're totally right dorkvader. I just gave a quick explanation and you're spot on about polymerization/other points. Plastics and polymers are also a weak point for me. I'm strongest in my metals material knowledge. Let us know what your father says .

[berserkfan]

You're totally right dorkvader. I just gave a quick explanation and you're spot on about polymerization/other points. Plastics and polymers are also a weak point for me. I'm strongest in my metals material knowledge. Let us know what your father says .

If they're ABS, how come they're so lasting? aren't ABS supposed to be LESS lasting? If you can make them shine by typing on the keycaps, can't you totally wear down all tactile bumps in the same time?

[IvanIvanovich]

Finger abrasion on keycaps can be quite a lot more than plastic on plastic or plastic on metal wear in a switch. Since the switch is more or less a sealed environment and is not exposed to the acidity, oils and dirt from human contact which tend to likely be the highest cause of keycap surface wear. That said I have encountered tactile switches which had seen high use that I couldn't distinguish from linear. Over time and use the tactile bumps will wear down, especially with browns.

[Lastpilot]

Hardened alien plasma.

[IvanIvanovich]

Damn, they should make spacebar like that!

[Zeal]

Hardened alien plasma.

Show Image

Where did that come from?  :eek:

[berserkfan]

Finger abrasion on keycaps can be quite a lot more than plastic on plastic or plastic on metal wear in a switch. Since the switch is more or less a sealed environment and is not exposed to the acidity, oils and dirt from human contact which tend to likely be the highest cause of keycap surface wear. That said I have encountered tactile switches which had seen high use that I couldn't distinguish from linear. Over time and use the tactile bumps will wear down, especially with browns.

Ivan, what about for clear switches?

I've bought a number of vintage clear boards, and surprisingly the tactile bumps are still excellent even though keyboard is clearly (pun not intended) old. I normally have terrible luck. Just wondering if the clear material is a different material from the browns.

[mkawa]

MX stems are made of acetal aka delrin aka POM

[rowdy]

MX stems are made of acetal aka delrin aka POM

/thread

[Zeal]

MX stems are made of acetal aka delrin aka POM

mkawa has inside sources?! 

[berserkfan]

MX stems are made of acetal aka delrin aka POM

Mkawa, you sure? Does that mean the melting point is higher than water, ie I can dye blue stems in boiling dye?

Does that apply to the entire stem assembly or just the stem without the clicky moving part? The white moving part on a blue stem seems to be softer than the stem. I could always remove the moving part before dyeing, but it's quite a pain.

[davkol]

I've read about POM before, sounds plausible. Test it FOR SCIENCE!

[mouse.the.lucky.dog]

I've read about POM before, sounds plausible. Test it FOR SCIENCE!

That's
FOR KEYBOARD SCIENCE

[mouse.the.lucky.dog]

MX stems are made of acetal aka delrin aka POM

Mkawa, you sure? Does that mean the melting point is higher than water, ie I can dye blue stems in boiling dye?

Does that apply to the entire stem assembly or just the stem without the clicky moving part? The white moving part on a blue stem seems to be softer than the stem. I could always remove the moving part before dyeing, but it's quite a pain.

Like I said buy a key or get one off a scrap board and try it.

[Zeal]

#forkeyboardscience

I'll throw a blue stem in bowling water for a couple mins in an old, unwanted pot. 

Potato pics in a few. 

[berserkfan]

#forkeyboardscience

I'll throw a blue stem in bowling water for a couple mins in an old, unwanted pot. 

Potato pics in a few.

Yes, I needed someone to do this test.

I happen to have no unwanted pots right now. If a blue stem melted and got stuck at the bottom of a pot, I am in big big trouble with family.

[Zeal]

#forkeyboardscience

I'll throw a blue stem in bowling water for a couple mins in an old, unwanted pot. 

Potato pics in a few.

Yes, I needed someone to do this test.

I happen to have no unwanted pots right now. If a blue stem melted and got stuck at the bottom of a pot, I am in big big trouble with family.

I was hoping that it wouldn't stick to the bottom of the pot..but I forgot that the blue stem is like a kernel of corn, and would just bob around the pot. Uploading pictures, interesting results.

[Zeal]

Used my handy dandy disposable chopsticks and lowered the MX Blue stem into the hot boiling water...

I held it in the middle for 1minute, until my pinky couldn't handle the steam, so I let go. 


Did you know MX Blue stems are hard to capture in boiling water?





After 10 minutes of boiling -- I hope the little guy is OK 



NOTHING IS WRONG






IT SURVIVED 10MINS IN BOILING WATER


Verdict: MX Blue stems can survive bathing in boiling water.

[Puddsy]

well then

I believe the term is "KEYBOARD SCIENCE"

[dorkvader]

You're totally right dorkvader. I just gave a quick explanation and you're spot on about polymerization/other points. Plastics and polymers are also a weak point for me. I'm strongest in my metals material knowledge. Let us know what your father says .

If they're ABS, how come they're so lasting? aren't ABS supposed to be LESS lasting? If you can make them shine by typing on the keycaps, can't you totally wear down all tactile bumps in the same time?

Despite the prevailing notion here, ABS is actually a very good plastic. Lego are made from ABS and it's got some nice properties. It's just not always the best choice for keycaps. Most of the harder plastics (PBT especially) are too brittle to be used often in most applications.

I thought the cases were made from POM, but hadn't heard anything about the stems.

Thanks for the science, zeal.

looks like POM melts at 175c (or 162c for the copolymer) so I'm not sure what it's made from if it melted in that pot. It was probably more than 100c in there, but likely not 175c unless it touched the bottom for a white, hmm.

[Zeal]

You're totally right dorkvader. I just gave a quick explanation and you're spot on about polymerization/other points. Plastics and polymers are also a weak point for me. I'm strongest in my metals material knowledge. Let us know what your father says .

If they're ABS, how come they're so lasting? aren't ABS supposed to be LESS lasting? If you can make them shine by typing on the keycaps, can't you totally wear down all tactile bumps in the same time?

Despite the prevailing notion here, ABS is actually a very good plastic. Lego are made from ABS and it's got some nice properties. It's just not always the best choice for keycaps. Most of the harder plastics (PBT especially) are too brittle to be used often in most applications.

I thought the cases were made from POM, but hadn't heard anything about the stems.

Thanks for the science, zeal.

looks like POM melts at 175c (or 162c for the copolymer) so I'm not sure what it's made from if it melted in that pot. It was probably more than 100c in there, but likely not 175c unless it touched the bottom for a white, hmm.

The blue stem was too light to touch the bottom of the pot while it was boiling. The only time it touched the very bottom was when I turned off the heat and waited for the bubbles to die out. I don't have a thermometer (Asian families almost never use measuring cups/thermometers )  to check the temp of the water unfortunately.
Based on the pic I posted, it does appear that the white clicky leg touched the surface of the pot for a brief moment though. It could also explain why the rest of the clicky slider didn't really deform.

Edit: The side the stem laid down on the pot is the same side that deformed. I'm just unsure if the weight of the stem could "push" down on the gap and melt the slider together before the clicky leg melts flat against the surface.
Nothing melted. Blue stem always looked like that.

[CPTBadAss]

I don't have a thermometer (Asian families almost never use measuring cups/thermometers )  to check the temp of the water unfortunately.

Truth. This 1000x


Zeal thanks for the keyboard science. You should do a comparison picture then try using it to see how it feels in a switch. Also, I'm glad you can use chopsticks but did you just make that post to show off your skills?

[Zeal]

I don't have a thermometer (Asian families almost never use measuring cups/thermometers )  to check the temp of the water unfortunately.

Truth. This 1000x


Zeal thanks for the keyboard science. You should do a comparison picture then try using it to see how it feels in a switch. Also, I'm glad you can use chopsticks but did you just make that post to show off your skills?

I put it back into the housing, and it still clicks like normal. The deformed leg looks like it's a bit more protruding than the regular, non deformed side. IGNORE

I'll see if I can get proper shots in a bit.

And please, CPT, of course I can use chopsticks! What else would I use? A tiny spoon/strainer? Fork? Chopsticks are the most stable, and aren't heat conductive!  )

[CPTBadAss]

Correct answer is wood spoon, duh. And thanks for testing the stem out!

[berserkfan]

Correct answer is wood spoon, duh. And thanks for testing the stem out!

Chopsticks are useful for many things, but definitely not for eating rice.

And can we say that the Blue part is not affected at all by the boiling water? Only the white part? Didn't quite see any change to the blue.

That way anybody who wants to get Cherry greens can just pull off the white parts, boil the blue parts in yellow dye?

[Zeal]

Correct answer is wood spoon, duh. And thanks for testing the stem out!

Chopsticks are useful for many things, but definitely not for eating rice.

And can we say that the Blue part is not affected at all by the boiling water? Only the white part? Didn't quite see any change to the blue.

That way anybody who wants to get Cherry greens can just pull off the white parts, boil the blue parts in yellow dye?

I disagree! Chopsticks are more efficient at eating rice + appetizers since you can push rice into your mouth + grab stuff on your plate.
Whereas with a spoon, you would have to scoop the rice and then place the spoon into your mouth, then switch to a fork to grab the appetizers on your plate.


Back on topic,

I'm not sure how well a lighter shade of rit dye dyes onto darker plastic. How long do you have to boil it for anyways?

[Zeal]

HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLD on a sec.

MX BLUE STEM SURVIVED IN BOILING WATER. CASE CLOSED. If you rit dye the whole thing yellow, you'll probably end up with a yellow slider & green stem.

Obviously, I haven't taken a good enough of a look at the little mx feet things!


One side is always attached to the foot, while the other has a little cut out.
I only realized something was wrong, when I started photographing an MX Clear stem.



I blame these .gifs for making me think a blue stem had two legs protruding out:

[berserkfan]

part? Didn't quite see any change to the blue.

That way anybody who wants to get Cherry greens can just pull off the white parts, boil the blue parts in yellow dye?

I disagree! Chopsticks are more efficient at eating rice + appetizers since you can push rice into your mouth + grab stuff on your plate.
Whereas with a spoon, you would have to scoop the rice and then place the spoon into your mouth, then switch to a fork to grab the appetizers on your plate.


Back on topic,

I'm not sure how well a lighter shade of rit dye dyes onto darker plastic. How long do you have to boil it for anyways?
[/quote]

Awwww right!

I'm so going to dye. But since green stems have white moving parts, I guess I'll still have to pull off the white parts...
(just bumped up my thread for more exchanges. duq, hurry up and count your blue stems so I can swap my blacks with your blues!)

And no, I use chopsticks to eat fruits, salads, (some) junk food, sometimes pizza (along with knives), french fries, etc.

I rarely use chopsticks to eat rice unless forced to (eg at Chinese or Japanese restaurant).

[tribade]

Ripster just posted some more of his keyboard science on reddit.  He must be reading these threads.  Anyway, here it is:  http://imgur.com/a/Pezs5

[mouse.the.lucky.dog]

******* just posted some more of his keyboard science on reddit.  He must be reading these threads.  Anyway, here it is:  http://imgur.com/a/Pezs5

Well since there is a  great deal of speculation of the quality of Kailh threads, it is not surprising that there is  curiousity about the composition of Cherry stems.

Ack. Wait one minute. You didn't! Looks like you did post the name of "he who must not be named"!  Now Death Eaters will show up at your home and all the protections will come down. Plus the moderators are going to have to delete every post for the last two weeks to make sure there is no cross contamination.

[berserkfan]

******* just posted some more of his keyboard science on reddit.  He must be reading these threads.  Anyway, here it is:  http://imgur.com/a/Pezs5

Well since there is a  great deal of speculation of the quality of Kailh threads, it is not surprising that there is  curiousity about the composition of Cherry stems.

Ack. Wait one minute. You didn't! Looks like you did post the name of "he who must not be named"!  Now Death Eaters will show up at your home and all the protections will come down. Plus the moderators are going to have to delete every post for the last two weeks to make sure there is no cross contamination.

I can never understand the hatred against Person X.

But if his article is correct, it seems fair to conclude the MX stems are made of POM.

It's further confirmation that I won't wind up with something melted and sticking to the bottom of a pot should I try to dye.

(As of now, no spare blue stems for dyeing, but I hope to change that with a swap for blue stems.)

[dorkvader]

******* just posted some more of his keyboard science on reddit.  He must be reading these threads.  Anyway, here it is:  http://imgur.com/a/Pezs5

Well since there is a  great deal of speculation of the quality of Kailh threads, it is not surprising that there is  curiousity about the composition of Cherry stems.

Ack. Wait one minute. You didn't! Looks like you did post the name of "he who must not be named"!  Now Death Eaters will show up at your home and all the protections will come down. Plus the moderators are going to have to delete every post for the last two weeks to make sure there is no cross contamination.

I can never understand the hatred against Person X.

But if his article is correct, it seems fair to conclude the MX stems are made of POM.

It's further confirmation that I won't wind up with something melted and sticking to the bottom of a pot should I try to dye.

(As of now, no spare blue stems for dyeing, but I hope to change that with a swap for blue stems.)

there are like dozens of plastics it could be that pass all those tests.

One thing I don't like about some of the "keyboard science" being done.
Well first of all, it's not even science. But other than that (just a name)

There's not enough testing before some conclusion is reached. Even more often, a hypothesis (or bias) is made (or had) and when enough testing is done that seems to indicate that it might be correct, they just quit, call it confirmed and call it a day. Maybe I should call this "mythbusters" syndrome.

Another thing to note is that POM is a relatively "new" plastic, I'll have to check and see if it was even around in 1984.

[CPTBadAss]

there are like dozens of plastics it could be that pass all those tests.

One thing I don't like about some of the "keyboard science" being done.
Well first of all, it's not even science. But other than that (just a name)

There's not enough testing before some conclusion is reached. Even more often, a hypothesis (or bias) is made (or had) and when enough testing is done that seems to indicate that it might be correct, they just quit, call it confirmed and call it a day. Maybe I should call this "mythbusters" syndrome.

Another thing to note is that POM is a relatively "new" plastic, I'll have to check and see if it was even around in 1984.

Again, totally agree with dorkvader. This boiling test is a nice start but that doesn't mean that yes, it is POM based on this one test. Like dorkvader said, there are other plastics that will pass this test. And even if it is POM, there are also many different proprietary formulations of POM such as Acetal and Delrin. POM is like saying "That car is a Honda" instead of "That car is a 1998 Honda Civic produced in Japan". It's not very specific, but it's a start.

Acording to Wikipedia, the first type of POM, Celcon, was produced in Germany in 1962.

[tribade]

there are like dozens of plastics it could be that pass all those tests.

One thing I don't like about some of the "keyboard science" being done.
Well first of all, it's not even science. But other than that (just a name)

There's not enough testing before some conclusion is reached. Even more often, a hypothesis (or bias) is made (or had) and when enough testing is done that seems to indicate that it might be correct, they just quit, call it confirmed and call it a day. Maybe I should call this "mythbusters" syndrome.

Another thing to note is that POM is a relatively "new" plastic, I'll have to check and see if it was even around in 1984.

Again, totally agree with dorkvader. This boiling test is a nice start but that doesn't mean that yes, it is POM based on this one test. Like dorkvader said, there are other plastics that will pass this test. And even if it is POM, there are also many different proprietary formulations of POM such as Acetal and Delrin. POM is like saying "That car is a Honda" instead of "That car is a 1998 Honda Civic produced in Japan". It's not very specific, but it's a start.

Acording to Wikipedia, the first type of POM, Celcon, was produced in Germany in 1962.

Agreed. I didn't mean for anyone to take it as conclusive proof that cherry stems are POM, I just saw it and thought that it was pertinent to this conversation.

[berserkfan]

there are like dozens of plastics it could be that pass all those tests.

One thing I don't like about some of the "keyboard science" being done.
Well first of all, it's not even science. But other than that (just a name)

There's not enough testing before some conclusion is reached. Even more often, a hypothesis (or bias) is made (or had) and when enough testing is done that seems to indicate that it might be correct, they just quit, call it confirmed and call it a day. Maybe I should call this "mythbusters" syndrome.

Another thing to note is that POM is a relatively "new" plastic, I'll have to check and see if it was even around in 1984.

Again, totally agree with dorkvader. This boiling test is a nice start but that doesn't mean that yes, it is POM based on this one test. Like dorkvader said, there are other plastics that will pass this test. And even if it is POM, there are also many different proprietary formulations of POM such as Acetal and Delrin. POM is like saying "That car is a Honda" instead of "That car is a 1998 Honda Civic produced in Japan". It's not very specific, but it's a start.

Acording to Wikipedia, the first type of POM, Celcon, was produced in Germany in 1962.

Agreed. I didn't mean for anyone to take it as conclusive proof that cherry stems are POM, I just saw it and thought that it was pertinent to this conversation.

You can see that I am extremely ignorant about materials.

Fortunately the combined minds and knowledge of geekhackery has corrected me once again.

I'll adjust my conclusion then: whether it is POM or not does not matter for the purposes of trying a dyeing experiment. As long as the crucial ability to survive boiling water holds, I can risk dyeing it.

Knowing that stems are not made of PBT does make a difference. I have to be mentally prepared that they may not react the same way to dye as normal Model M keycaps.

It would be nice if we could make our own ghetto greens easily though. They're pretty.

[dorkvader]

I'll adjust my conclusion then: whether it is POM or not does not matter for the purposes of trying a dyeing experiment. As long as the crucial ability to survive boiling water holds, I can risk dyeing it.

Knowing that stems are not made of PBT does make a difference. I have to be mentally prepared that they may not react the same way to dye as normal Model M keycaps.

It would be nice if we could make our own ghetto greens easily though. They're pretty.

I think that's the takeaway here. We may not know what they're made of for sure (I mean, a type of POM is a likely choice, but it can certainly be something else) but we do know some things that they're not. This helps a lot.

Also, from a pragmatic stance: you can try dying them without fear. Hopefully the dye will take! I don't know how porous the plastic is.