Incandescent Light Bulbs

[Hundrakia]

I don't Care as much about display panels, I was using OLED as an example of lighting solutions.

[JaccoW]

Right now I am using a Philips HUE system in my bedroom combined with two older Living Color lights and some dimmable halogen spots pointed at the ceiling.
I can do any colour I want (yes, even incandescent light) and still have enough light to work and live in.
The newer HUE system uses different LEDs than the standard RGB ones so it is very good at the whole range of general lighting but cannot do a deep green or cyan. I love the ability to set up a sunset scheme with a dark orange/ dusk colour.

[damorgue]

I don't think I've heard of Lightboost before. What is it?

strobe the backlight so that you do not see the transitional states of the LCD matrix..

That is what motion blur is, when you see something move across the screen.. the backlight is constantly on,  so while the matrix changes color and intensity, it creates a blur...

but.. if you flash the backlight to only illuminate a completed state...motion image will look completely smooth with NO trail..


this can only be done @ 100hz + because any less, you'd see flashing..

OLED can't be used in this way AT ALL.... because they themselves are light emitting..


Currently only possible on TN panels that do 144hz / 120hz refresh..

these are stills taken while a ufo alien moved quickly across the screen..

the difference between boosted and nonboosted

Show Image

Show Image

I thought light boost had been revealed as as scam? It was basically what they decided to call their cheaper models who suffered from PWM-controlled backlighting which causes annoying and potentially hazardous flickering. Sure it can be used to achieve clearer still images (although less clear animations), but it was just a way for them to get away with using a cheaper and worse technology by applying a fancy name to a negative aspect.

[Oobly]

It'll be interesting to see when those flexible LED's hit the market. I can imagine them being useful for smartphone displays, if only somebody came up with a viable flexible touch-screen!

The OLED is not nearly ready..

blue oled degredation is still significantly faster than greed/red..   so they're fine for smart phones because  these things are "OFF" most of the time.

but even then, the panel noticeably get worse pretty quickly for heavy users..



Also, oled still has image persistence far greater than lightboosted backlit..    which makes them pointless for the new wave of clear motion displays..


Lightboost is the technology to lookout for in our most immediate future..

OLED still needs another 10 years..

PLEASE stop spreading disinformation. OLED has microsecond switching speeds (unlike the milliseconds switching of LCD), so you DO NOT GET blur or image persistence. OLED is a superior technology to backlit LCD in almost every aspect (efficiency, contrast, view angles, response time, etc..)

Blue OLEDs do degrade fast, unfortunately, and I suspect this is the main reson for not releasing desktop displays with OLED. Samsung have demonstrated large OLED panels (40" and above) with high resolution and good colour reproduction before. It could also be that the production cost of larger panels is prohibitive.

I believe it's the single component, so-called "white" LED's that have spiky emission spectra, since most of them are primarily based on blue LED chemistry with added impurities to get the other frequencies.

You are absolutely mistaken..

IMAGE-persistence, is the attribute we're talking about here..  NOT  response time..

Flashing the backlight of a backlit LCD (TN),  you can achieve 1ms of image persistence..  whereas OLED can not yet duplicate this..

Again... you are mistaken,  this is NOT response time we're talking about


Response time has nothing to do with strobe backlighting which is crucial to making motion clear..


I have had several samsung oled, and currently the note 3..  Image persistence and blur is continually an issue on such devices..

Firstly, Samsung's particular implementation of OLED in AMOLED panels is rather poor and the blur is due to the switching speed of the transistors used in the panel, NOT the OLED elements.

It is exactly "response time", since an OLED element is the light source, so the time it takes to change from one colour to another determines how long the old colour and therefore the old image persists. The OLED elements themselves can switch in microseconds, so if you use GOOD transistors you can beat LCD response time and therefore reduce image persistence by a factor of hundreds if not close a thousand.

Strobing the backlight reduces overall brightness (since the backlight is off during the pixel change) and it doesn't improve the ACTUAL persistence of the old image on the display, just the PERCEIVED persistence.

All CFLs and LEDs have very spiky emission spectra, which are dramatically less pleasant (IMO) and distort color relationships (causing potential problems for anyone who cares about the way their photographs/paintings/clothes/... looks).

Tri colour LEDs have excellent emission spectra.

+1 to this. It would be nice if more lightbulb manufacturers started using triple elements. Preferably in conjunction with a power smoothing circuit to reduce flicker. That'd solve the emission issues and the flicker. It'd make them a lot more expensive, though, since you can actually wire LED's directly to mains current, christmas lights style and that's exactly what the cheaper LED bulbs do and you'd have to balance the supply to the different colour LED's since they have different forward voltage drop, current handling and brightness.

[tp4tissue]

It'll be interesting to see when those flexible LED's hit the market. I can imagine them being useful for smartphone displays, if only somebody came up with a viable flexible touch-screen!

The OLED is not nearly ready..

blue oled degredation is still significantly faster than greed/red..   so they're fine for smart phones because  these things are "OFF" most of the time.

but even then, the panel noticeably get worse pretty quickly for heavy users..



Also, oled still has image persistence far greater than lightboosted backlit..    which makes them pointless for the new wave of clear motion displays..


Lightboost is the technology to lookout for in our most immediate future..

OLED still needs another 10 years..

PLEASE stop spreading disinformation. OLED has microsecond switching speeds (unlike the milliseconds switching of LCD), so you DO NOT GET blur or image persistence. OLED is a superior technology to backlit LCD in almost every aspect (efficiency, contrast, view angles, response time, etc..)

Blue OLEDs do degrade fast, unfortunately, and I suspect this is the main reson for not releasing desktop displays with OLED. Samsung have demonstrated large OLED panels (40" and above) with high resolution and good colour reproduction before. It could also be that the production cost of larger panels is prohibitive.

I believe it's the single component, so-called "white" LED's that have spiky emission spectra, since most of them are primarily based on blue LED chemistry with added impurities to get the other frequencies.

You are absolutely mistaken..

IMAGE-persistence, is the attribute we're talking about here..  NOT  response time..

Flashing the backlight of a backlit LCD (TN),  you can achieve 1ms of image persistence..  whereas OLED can not yet duplicate this..

Again... you are mistaken,  this is NOT response time we're talking about


Response time has nothing to do with strobe backlighting which is crucial to making motion clear..


I have had several samsung oled, and currently the note 3..  Image persistence and blur is continually an issue on such devices..

Firstly, Samsung's particular implementation of OLED in AMOLED panels is rather poor and the blur is due to the switching speed of the transistors used in the panel, NOT the OLED elements.

It is exactly "response time", since an OLED element is the light source, so the time it takes to change from one colour to another determines how long the old colour and therefore the old image persists. The OLED elements themselves can switch in microseconds, so if you use GOOD transistors you can beat LCD response time and therefore reduce image persistence by a factor of hundreds if not close a thousand.

Strobing the backlight reduces overall brightness (since the backlight is off during the pixel change) and it doesn't improve the ACTUAL persistence of the old image on the display, just the PERCEIVED persistence.

All CFLs and LEDs have very spiky emission spectra, which are dramatically less pleasant (IMO) and distort color relationships (causing potential problems for anyone who cares about the way their photographs/paintings/clothes/... looks).

Tri colour LEDs have excellent emission spectra.

+1 to this. It would be nice if more lightbulb manufacturers started using triple elements. Preferably in conjunction with a power smoothing circuit to reduce flicker. That'd solve the emission issues and the flicker. It'd make them a lot more expensive, though, since you can actually wire LED's directly to mains current, christmas lights style and that's exactly what the cheaper LED bulbs do and you'd have to balance the supply to the different colour LED's since they have different forward voltage drop, current handling and brightness.

"Just the perceived- Persistence"...  Yes because NOTHING ELSE MATTERS ... Get with the program already..

The display is made so I can perceive the image upon it... Jebus...



OLED is poor, and needs another 10 years.. firstly  THey produce VERY little light compared to a backlit solution..


So the REASON samsung and ALLLLL oled utilize LONG image persistence is due to this low brightness limitation. 

If they blinked it off too quickly, or strobed it,  it'd be too dim..


Transition  between ON and OFF is irrelevant, if within that frame, they can't produce enough light..


With backlit , just use a more powerful light,  DONE...  OLED... you need a hell of alot more research and dev  to get anywhere close to the output of backlit solutions..


WHICH is why OLED as a viable MOTION-display solution is WAY WAY WAY out.. 10 years minimum..


Lightboost is the ONLY game in town..

[Senthura]

I get migraines around anything but incandescents so this is a personal attack by the government IMO (Yeah, I'm paranoid). I just have an entire storage shed full of bulbs. They still sell rough duty incandescents I think though. I'm a lamp and lightbulb geek.

[Oobly]

....


"Just the perceived- Persistence"...  Yes because NOTHING ELSE MATTERS ... Get with the program already..

The display is made so I can perceive the image upon it... Jebus...



OLED is poor, and needs another 10 years.. firstly  THey produce VERY little light compared to a backlit solution..


So the REASON samsung and ALLLLL oled utilize LONG image persistence is due to this low brightness limitation. 

If they blinked it off too quickly, or strobed it,  it'd be too dim..


Transition  between ON and OFF is irrelevant, if within that frame, they can't produce enough light..


With backlit , just use a more powerful light,  DONE...  OLED... you need a hell of alot more research and dev  to get anywhere close to the output of backlit solutions..


WHICH is why OLED as a viable MOTION-display solution is WAY WAY WAY out.. 10 years minimum..


Lightboost is the ONLY game in town..

Show Image

STAAAHP, PLEASE JUST STAAAAHHHP!

Brightness is just fine on OLED, certainly good enough for desktop displays or TV's and contrast is unbeatable (not to mention view angles, light bleed, etc). And you have it the wrong way round, if your switching time is fast you don't need to resort to a hack like "Lightboost" and you can keep the display on all the time without introducing a strobed / flickering display. Which do you think is better for your eyes?

Samsung's image persistence has absolutely NOTHING to do with brightness levels. They used slow transistors... that's all.

All OLED needs is good transistors used in the matrix. And it won't need 10 years, it's here now (although a bit expensive still):

http://www.amazon.com/LG-Electronics-55EA9800-Cinema-Curved/dp/B00E5U3YEK

And here's an interesting article:

http://www.displaymate.com/LG_OLED_TV_ShootOut_1.htm

See the section on response time and motion blur.

Now can you please stop spreading disinformation....

[RED-404]

I have a SOX lamp on the side of my shop takes 30min to warm up, but works great and runs cheap as hell.
At some point I want to try induction lighting.

[maatmouse]

The incandescent light bulb is a thing of the past in our house.

We only use the LED ones which came in the Ikea lights we bought and the better environmentally friendly ones now.

We found the incandescents had such a short shelf life.

[Novus]

I refuse to have the government tell me what kind of light bulbs I can buy.
God damn hippies.

[rush340]

I use CFL mostly, but I use incandescent floods downstairs in the TV/music space, usually dimmed.  I bought some dimmable CFLs once and they didn't work right with my dimmer, it was just on or off.  They also looked terrible.

[Lain1911]

Other good changes would be to encourage people to live in smaller houses; adjust their thermostats less aggressively; buy smaller refrigerators and freezers; take jobs closer to home to cut their commutes and work from home more often; build denser neighborhoods to get people to spend more of their time biking, walking, and taking public transit instead of driving everywhere; travel longer distances by train instead of car or plane; eat less-processed food; cut down on the amount of packaging in everything they buy; &c. &c. Instead we get a crack down on light bulbs.

Holy ****, that **** ain't the 'merican way!

Murica  People of all occupation must drive F350s to work... whether or not you've ever hauled anything in your life.. EVER..

Damn straight!
But in consideration of the above mentioned shizz…I've downsized from an F350 crew cab long bed diesel 4X4, to an F250 crew cab standard bed 2WD and now all the way down to a tiny girls truck….my current F150 crew cab short bed 2WD (but I kept the towing package).

I'm an environmentalist from the word go.

Replace your ****ing light bulbs with the new stuff and stop complaining *****es!

You can take my job just don't take my land

[Input Nirvana]

Other good changes would be to encourage people to live in smaller houses; adjust their thermostats less aggressively; buy smaller refrigerators and freezers; take jobs closer to home to cut their commutes and work from home more often; build denser neighborhoods to get people to spend more of their time biking, walking, and taking public transit instead of driving everywhere; travel longer distances by train instead of car or plane; eat less-processed food; cut down on the amount of packaging in everything they buy; &c. &c. Instead we get a crack down on light bulbs.

Holy ****, that **** ain't the 'merican way!

Murica  People of all occupation must drive F350s to work... whether or not you've ever hauled anything in your life.. EVER..

Damn straight!
But in consideration of the above mentioned shizz…I've downsized from an F350 crew cab long bed diesel 4X4, to an F250 crew cab standard bed 2WD and now all the way down to a tiny girls truck….my current F150 crew cab short bed 2WD (but I kept the towing package).

I'm an environmentalist from the word go.

Replace your ****ing light bulbs with the new stuff and stop complaining *****es!

You can take my job just don't take my land

You can take my light bulbs but I'll die on my feet rather than live on my knees.

[Novus]

How many geekwhacks does it take to change a lightbulb?

[Input Nirvana]

How many geekwhacks does it take to change a lightbulb?

How many!!!!!

[blackbox]

How many geekwhacks does it take to change a lightbulb?

Everyone in this thread since we cant agree on which lightbulb we are going to replace it with.

[RED-404]

I thought we were just going to install one of every type we can come up with and use a Teensy to randomly pick what light turns on or we can add a display with a timer option and let the Teensy select the best light to use based on the time we are going to need it for. Then we can also get into lighting purpose, maybe you want one light for gaming another for taking pictures of keyboards ect ect ect....

[paicrai]

adolesence in lightbulbs as well now?

[tp4tissue]

....


"Just the perceived- Persistence"...  Yes because NOTHING ELSE MATTERS ... Get with the program already..

The display is made so I can perceive the image upon it... Jebus...



OLED is poor, and needs another 10 years.. firstly  THey produce VERY little light compared to a backlit solution..


So the REASON samsung and ALLLLL oled utilize LONG image persistence is due to this low brightness limitation. 

If they blinked it off too quickly, or strobed it,  it'd be too dim..


Transition  between ON and OFF is irrelevant, if within that frame, they can't produce enough light..


With backlit , just use a more powerful light,  DONE...  OLED... you need a hell of alot more research and dev  to get anywhere close to the output of backlit solutions..


WHICH is why OLED as a viable MOTION-display solution is WAY WAY WAY out.. 10 years minimum..


Lightboost is the ONLY game in town..

Show Image

STAAAHP, PLEASE JUST STAAAAHHHP!

Brightness is just fine on OLED, certainly good enough for desktop displays or TV's and contrast is unbeatable (not to mention view angles, light bleed, etc). And you have it the wrong way round, if your switching time is fast you don't need to resort to a hack like "Lightboost" and you can keep the display on all the time without introducing a strobed / flickering display. Which do you think is better for your eyes?

Samsung's image persistence has absolutely NOTHING to do with brightness levels. They used slow transistors... that's all.

All OLED needs is good transistors used in the matrix. And it won't need 10 years, it's here now (although a bit expensive still):

http://www.amazon.com/LG-Electronics-55EA9800-Cinema-Curved/dp/B00E5U3YEK

And here's an interesting article:

http://www.displaymate.com/LG_OLED_TV_ShootOut_1.htm

See the section on response time and motion blur.

Now can you please stop spreading disinformation....

You ignorant F00L

read this..

http://hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1780462.html

OLED is at least 10 years away..  at this point, it's bluring aspect is no better than plasma..  which is extremely blurry compared to Lightb00st

Again, you're stuck in an error of terminology..

Motion blur,,,,, can result from many different things....  because OLED can't be easily strobed AND produce enough brightness at the same time...  it MUST use the sample-hold method to display your images..

So even if you have 0.1ms transition time you need around 16ms of persistence to adequately produce very bright images...

[Oobly]

....


"Just the perceived- Persistence"...  Yes because NOTHING ELSE MATTERS ... Get with the program already..

The display is made so I can perceive the image upon it... Jebus...



OLED is poor, and needs another 10 years.. firstly  THey produce VERY little light compared to a backlit solution..


So the REASON samsung and ALLLLL oled utilize LONG image persistence is due to this low brightness limitation. 

If they blinked it off too quickly, or strobed it,  it'd be too dim..


Transition  between ON and OFF is irrelevant, if within that frame, they can't produce enough light..


With backlit , just use a more powerful light,  DONE...  OLED... you need a hell of alot more research and dev  to get anywhere close to the output of backlit solutions..


WHICH is why OLED as a viable MOTION-display solution is WAY WAY WAY out.. 10 years minimum..


Lightboost is the ONLY game in town..

Show Image

STAAAHP, PLEASE JUST STAAAAHHHP!

Brightness is just fine on OLED, certainly good enough for desktop displays or TV's and contrast is unbeatable (not to mention view angles, light bleed, etc). And you have it the wrong way round, if your switching time is fast you don't need to resort to a hack like "Lightboost" and you can keep the display on all the time without introducing a strobed / flickering display. Which do you think is better for your eyes?

Samsung's image persistence has absolutely NOTHING to do with brightness levels. They used slow transistors... that's all.

All OLED needs is good transistors used in the matrix. And it won't need 10 years, it's here now (although a bit expensive still):

http://www.amazon.com/LG-Electronics-55EA9800-Cinema-Curved/dp/B00E5U3YEK

And here's an interesting article:

http://www.displaymate.com/LG_OLED_TV_ShootOut_1.htm

See the section on response time and motion blur.

Now can you please stop spreading disinformation....

You ignorant F00L

read this..

http://hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1780462.html

OLED is at least 10 years away..  at this point, it's bluring aspect is no better than plasma..  which is extremely blurry compared to Lightb00st

Again, you're stuck in an error of terminology..

Motion blur,,,,, can result from many different things....  because OLED can't be easily strobed AND produce enough brightness at the same time...  it MUST use the sample-hold method to display your images..

So even if you have 0.1ms transition time you need around 16ms of persistence to adequately produce very bright images...

Okay, now we get to the meat and potatoes. I finally understand what you're saying. At 60Hz on a sample and hold OLED display you will get motion "flicker", not blur. Blur is a misnomer for this type of artefact. The perception of blur in this case is a psychovisual one, not a physical one.

With OLEDs the image does not persist beyond the frame time at high frame rates, but with LCD it does. However with OLED the image persists for the whole frame time whereas with LIGHTBOOSTED LCD it persists only for however long the backlight is on for (although it still suffers from ghosting on slow panels).

The problem is that your eyes expect a moving object to be halfway between the positions at half the time, but it jumps from one point to another. With LCD blur, it's not dependant on eye movement, but rather the slow response of the display. So flickering the backlight creates black frames in between so you can ignore the position between the frames, your brain fills it in as being in between.

Some OLEDs do use strobing and eliminate this, but it requires a very bright panel to make up for the lost "on-time".

The solution to this is to have faster refresh rate and higher framerate source material OR brighter panels to make up for the light lost by strobing.

I prefer the former :) But it's not likely that movies, etc. switch to 240FPS or higher any time soon.  :( It IS however possible for a graphics card to render frames at 240+FPS, so gaming on an OLED without blur is already possible, not 10 years off.......



The Oculus Rift Crystal Cove headset uses a strobed OLED panel, but it's able to get a way with low relative brightness because it's a headset and the panel is the only light you're seeing.

Personally, I can live with something like Sony's PVM-2541 panel which uses 7.5ms persistance and 9.2ms black frame. Better than 120Hz LCD, but not LightBoosted 120Hz. Bright enough, fast enough, smooth enough motion. Better colour reproduction, contrast ratio, efficiency and view angles than LCD. But still too expensive.

Point is, OLED will improve, there are already 5000cd/m2 OLED displays being developed, so even strobed panels for lower framerate source material will come. I don't think it's 10 years away. Unfortunately it seems Sony is getting out of the big panel OLED market which leaves only LG developing these.