Author Topic: Ferguson R2  (Read 10322 times)

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Offline cmadrid

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Ferguson R2
« on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 23:07:33 »
Things are even crazier this time than they were during the summer.. they burned a dozen buildings down, and set cars on fire.  So glad I'm far enough away that things are safe for my family.  Anyone else live in the St Louis area?

Offline Puddsy

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 23:10:43 »
I still think it's ****ed.

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Offline cmadrid

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 23:15:22 »
It is ****ed!  The way the fires spread, it was definitely organized arson.  I live on the opposite side of St Louis from the Ferguson area, but I have some friends that aren't so lucky.  I hope any fellow GH members in the StL area are able to stay safe!

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 23:35:50 »
The crazy thing about looters and rioters is that THEY ARE DESTROYING THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOODS. They did the same thing during the Rodney King riots in LA in the early '90s. You would think they would burn buildings and steal things in another area of town, at least.
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Offline tbc

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 23:49:16 »
wasn't the original looting in the summer done by out of towners?  not the case this time?
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Offline cmadrid

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 00:17:32 »
Most of the looting was done by people from surrounding neighborhoods, but not really people from 'out of town'

I think the looters are just opportunistic scumbags taking advantage of the chaos/caught up in the 'mob mentality'.. The arson last night was probably organized by actual 'out of towners', imo

Offline baldgye

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 03:40:44 »
Reminds me of the stupid retards who 'protested' when that kid was shot in London. Most of the major cities people 'protested' by looting, smashing and burning cars and destroying businesses.

Idk if it's a 'poor' thing or a class thing, but it's fairly common.

Offline katushkin

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 03:43:57 »
Reminds me of the stupid retards who 'protested' when that kid was shot in London. Most of the major cities people 'protested' by looting, smashing and burning cars and destroying businesses.

Idk if it's a 'poor' thing or a class thing, but it's fairly common.

I think it's an idiot thing. The students did it in London back in 2010 as well, and they are meant to be intelligent, but are clearly just idiots. And that guy pissed on the cenotaph as well hoooooooooly ****. I think that was worse than anything else anybody did that day.

I jsut remember sitting in a cafe in Afghanistan watching mounted policemen run down a load of students. Man that was funny.
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 04:10:38 »
Reminds me of the Rodney King **** from the 90s. Just embarrassing. :blank:


Offline katushkin

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 04:13:01 »
Reminds me of the Rodney King **** from the 90s. Just embarrassing. :blank:


The picture of that store owner in the mess of what remains of his shop (the one who was robbed by Michael Brown) is pretty sad.
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Offline azhdar

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 04:21:02 »
Reminds me of the stupid retards who 'protested' when that kid was shot in London. Most of the major cities people 'protested' by looting, smashing and burning cars and destroying businesses.

Idk if it's a 'poor' thing or a class thing, but it's fairly common.

We had this kind of riots lately in France , a rioter got accidently killed by the police , so they molotoved and fought the police as a tribute . Very logical ...
Most of people in those riot aren't even there to defend a cause , they're here to loot or because it's entertaining .
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Offline tbc

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 04:31:29 »
Reminds me of the stupid retards who 'protested' when that kid was shot in London. Most of the major cities people 'protested' by looting, smashing and burning cars and destroying businesses.

Idk if it's a 'poor' thing or a class thing, but it's fairly common.

students in quebec rioted when they were told they had to pay a third of what everyone else has to pay in canada.

i mean...if so stupid, why allowed into university?

EDIT:

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« Last Edit: Wed, 26 November 2014, 04:33:37 by tbc »
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Offline iri

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 04:37:07 »
Where will the protesters buy their groceries afterwards?
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

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Offline baldgye

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 05:00:04 »
Reminds me of the stupid retards who 'protested' when that kid was shot in London. Most of the major cities people 'protested' by looting, smashing and burning cars and destroying businesses.

Idk if it's a 'poor' thing or a class thing, but it's fairly common.

I think it's an idiot thing. The students did it in London back in 2010 as well, and they are meant to be intelligent, but are clearly just idiots. And that guy pissed on the cenotaph as well hoooooooooly ****. I think that was worse than anything else anybody did that day.

I jsut remember sitting in a cafe in Afghanistan watching mounted policemen run down a load of students. Man that was funny.

I was a student back in those days in my final years and I remember having an argument with a guy, as Im of the opinion that uni is an amazing cheap deal as is, and especially if you compare it to private high school level education.
Holy **** that protest, even the legit one, pissed me the **** off so much. One of the huge issues with a benefits system is people inside that system have no clue how much things cost in the real world.

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 05:03:51 »
unfortunately for owners of capital...  this has very little to do with race..  it's rather a simple exercise in re-balancing of social inequity during times of lax enforcement capability..

The spark may have been the police shooting..  but realize no one gives a damn about "that dead guy"


Look at WWI.. and the continued WWII...  was that one dead guy worth all that destruction, HELL NO..


It was beneath the surface, a POWER STRUGGLE,  under the guise of revengeance justice..


Offline katushkin

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 05:04:49 »
Reminds me of the stupid retards who 'protested' when that kid was shot in London. Most of the major cities people 'protested' by looting, smashing and burning cars and destroying businesses.

Idk if it's a 'poor' thing or a class thing, but it's fairly common.

I think it's an idiot thing. The students did it in London back in 2010 as well, and they are meant to be intelligent, but are clearly just idiots. And that guy pissed on the cenotaph as well hoooooooooly ****. I think that was worse than anything else anybody did that day.

I jsut remember sitting in a cafe in Afghanistan watching mounted policemen run down a load of students. Man that was funny.

I was a student back in those days in my final years and I remember having an argument with a guy, as Im of the opinion that uni is an amazing cheap deal as is, and especially if you compare it to private high school level education.
Holy **** that protest, even the legit one, pissed me the **** off so much. One of the huge issues with a benefits system is people inside that system have no clue how much things cost in the real world.

Or compare it to the rest of the world. People were angry when it went from free to what, a MAXIMUM of £3.5k a year? And then people were angry again when it went up to a potential maximum of £9.5k. Oh no, not £30K of debt after three years!

Just think of all the Americans who don't particularly fancy taking out a second mortgage to send one of their kids through university, jesus christ.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 05:11:03 »
Reminds me of the stupid retards who 'protested' when that kid was shot in London. Most of the major cities people 'protested' by looting, smashing and burning cars and destroying businesses.

Idk if it's a 'poor' thing or a class thing, but it's fairly common.

I think it's an idiot thing. The students did it in London back in 2010 as well, and they are meant to be intelligent, but are clearly just idiots. And that guy pissed on the cenotaph as well hoooooooooly ****. I think that was worse than anything else anybody did that day.

I jsut remember sitting in a cafe in Afghanistan watching mounted policemen run down a load of students. Man that was funny.

I was a student back in those days in my final years and I remember having an argument with a guy, as Im of the opinion that uni is an amazing cheap deal as is, and especially if you compare it to private high school level education.
Holy **** that protest, even the legit one, pissed me the **** off so much. One of the huge issues with a benefits system is people inside that system have no clue how much things cost in the real world.

Or compare it to the rest of the world. People were angry when it went from free to what, a MAXIMUM of �3.5k a year? And then people were angry again when it went up to a potential maximum of �9.5k. Oh no, not �30K of debt after three years!

Just think of all the Americans who don't particularly fancy taking out a second mortgage to send one of their kids through university, jesus christ.

Quite. My parents actually sold our family home in order to pay for me and my brothers private education, then these clueless ****s start getting pissy that they will have to pay a bit more back an interest free loan that they literally only pay back when they are earning over X amount and even then paying back in tiny amounts.

Ugh thinking about it makes me hella salty lol

Offline 0100010

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 12:32:19 »
Where will the protesters buy their groceries afterwards?

I don't think using EBT counts as 'buying' groceries to begin with.
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Offline Lurch

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 12:34:59 »
Where will the protesters buy their groceries afterwards?

I don't think using EBT counts as 'buying' groceries to begin with.

Wow.
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Offline osi

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 12:35:32 »
Where will the protesters buy their groceries afterwards?

I don't think using EBT counts as 'buying' groceries to begin with.

What's EBT have to do with anything?

Offline Puddsy

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 12:36:26 »
how are we having a civilized discussion on such a loaded topic

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Offline Lurch

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 12:40:53 »
Stay safe cmadrid and any other members that might be in that area.
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Offline iri

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 14:32:20 »
Where will the protesters buy their groceries afterwards?

I don't think using EBT counts as 'buying' groceries to begin with.

What's EBT have to do with anything?
most rioters are black americans => they are, like, totally on welfare and stuff. even i know that!
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline demik

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 15:10:03 »
Where will the protesters buy their groceries afterwards?

I don't think using EBT counts as 'buying' groceries to begin with.

way to be a ****

Where will the protesters buy their groceries afterwards?

I don't think using EBT counts as 'buying' groceries to begin with.

What's EBT have to do with anything?
most rioters are black americans => they are, like, totally on welfare and stuff. even i know that!

well no, not really. according to jd it's the mexican illegals that are the ones with the welfare mentality.
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 16:19:12 »
As I see it, just with the beating of Rodney King, the shooting of the black kid in Ferguson was a spark that set off the dynamite that had been piling up for years.
And then, the idiots in charge poured gasoline on the flames...  Violence is the answer to everything over there in the good ole USA.

well no, not really. according to jd it's the mexican illegals that are the ones with the welfare mentality.
LOL. Illegal immigrants on welfare ...

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Offline Puddsy

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 16:23:40 »
There's the hate and anger that I'm used to.
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Offline cmadrid

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 20:43:12 »
The real problem with the St Louis area is the way it is divided up into tiny counties.. each has its own set of politicians (mayor etc) and most have their own police department (some have had their police departments dissolved due to massive corruption(the rest should too)).  Some counties are pretty much a 2 square mile **** hole with a 50 foot stretch of highway they get to pull people over on.  If you drive past the airport during the day you will see anywhere from 3-10 people pulled over at any given time, by the 6 counties you drive through within a 5 mile stretch

Offline cmadrid

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Offline keymaster

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 26 November 2014, 22:06:49 »
The picture of that store owner in the mess of what remains of his shop (the one who was robbed by Michael Brown) is pretty sad.

Indeed.



Offline berserkfan

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 02:14:28 »
The picture of that store owner in the mess of what remains of his shop (the one who was robbed by Michael Brown) is pretty sad.

Indeed.


Show Image


Actually I was delighted by that photo. I was anticipating the worst.

I got to know Koreans whose families actually lost all they had in the LA riots. Lots of these mom and pop businesses couldn't get insurance. They couldn't even get financial aid to college (essentially reserved for communities of color, also known as black color, and other so called underprivileged). If not for the fact that Koreans always help Koreans they wouldn't be in college at all.

This Indian man is pretty lucky. That mess can be cleaned up in an hour. At least his shop wasn't burnt to the ground.

The rioters should have been all shot. If not with live ammo, at least with rubber bullets. Too bad modern interpretations of democracy and human rights forbid it. I don't think America's founding fathers intended to allow people to riot and destroy private property as they pleased. In 18th century America they wouldn't have cared if the rioters were Irish or slaves; they'd have shot everyone or ridden them down, then put the survivors into the stocks for the public to deal with.

That said, I think the best way to punish this community of rioters, is to have no outside businesses serve them. Al Sharpton, the NAACP, Jesse Jackson, the Black Panthers and their ilk can go about setting up their Black Pride Afrocentric businesses on the ruins, importing everything on the cheap from Nigeria and South Africa. I'm sure these businesses will be thriving, and future Michael Browns wouldn't dare steal from a shop protected by the toughest gangstas and bruthas in da hood. Everything would be hunky dory and Ferguson will be known as a black paradise soon.
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Offline iri

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 03:55:20 »
The rioters should have been all shot. If not with live ammo, at least with rubber bullets. Too bad modern interpretations of democracy and human rights forbid it.
your "****tiest trolling of the year" medal is being carved now.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline baldgye

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 04:08:55 »
The real problem with the St Louis area is the way it is divided up into tiny counties.. each has its own set of politicians (mayor etc) and most have their own police department (some have had their police departments dissolved due to massive corruption(the rest should too)).  Some counties are pretty much a 2 square mile **** hole with a 50 foot stretch of highway they get to pull people over on.  If you drive past the airport during the day you will see anywhere from 3-10 people pulled over at any given time, by the 6 counties you drive through within a 5 mile stretch

That's crazy lol

Offline berserkfan

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 05:34:50 »
The rioters should have been all shot. If not with live ammo, at least with rubber bullets. Too bad modern interpretations of democracy and human rights forbid it.
your "****tiest trolling of the year" medal is being carved now.

And what would you have done? Gotten the neighbourhood bubushkas to make bliny and borscht for the rioters? Your dear leader (with his over 80% approval rating) would probably have deported them to Siberia at the very least.
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 05:50:01 »
Silly how this discussion is mostly about throwing blame on the rioters. The officials in Ferguson did all they could to provoke a riot, and a riot is what they got, not surprising.
« Last Edit: Thu, 27 November 2014, 05:52:46 by Findecanor »
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 08:46:18 »
When it comes to class warfare...   the lower class always win.. hahaha.. it's inevitable.. 

especially in a developed nation, where you can't just shoot people..



had this been in the third world.. murica would've just sent in troops and said.. YEA FREEDOM..




Offline baldgye

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 09:06:14 »
especially in a developed nation, where you can't just shoot people..

So the US is fine then, amrite? hueheueheueheu

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 09:14:13 »

Where will the protesters buy their groceries afterwards?

I don't think using EBT counts as 'buying' groceries to begin with.

What's EBT have to do with anything?
most rioters are black americans => they are, like, totally on welfare and stuff. even i know that!

well no, not really. according to jd it's the mexican illegals that are the ones with the welfare mentality.

Can we just agree that abusing privileges knows no racial bounds?
:rolleyes:

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 09:19:29 »

Where will the protesters buy their groceries afterwards?

I don't think using EBT counts as 'buying' groceries to begin with.

What's EBT have to do with anything?
most rioters are black americans => they are, like, totally on welfare and stuff. even i know that!

well no, not really. according to jd it's the mexican illegals that are the ones with the welfare mentality.

Can we just agree that abusing privileges knows no racial bounds?
:rolleyes:

Yeah, I'm not excluding anyone. Black people can and do have welfare mentality as prevalent as Mexicans, whites, or any other race. I just see it more with Hispanics here, due to my geography.
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Offline dante

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 09:45:27 »
Yeah, I'm not excluding anyone. Black people can and do have welfare mentality as prevalent as Mexicans, whites, or any other race. I just see it more with Hispanics here, due to my geography.

In my area the blacks / whites are the laziest; Hispanics have this mentality too but are easily the hardest working and most thrifty with what they receive.

My sister in law (white) feels a sense of entitlement just because she was able to open her legs and get knocked up several times.  The only reason why I don't shove that fact in her face is because she can't take it and won't let my father/mother in law see the kids.

I don't know if it's age or the constant stream of bad news - but I would feel some comfort if one day I heard the government rounded up all the educated people, those with skills or something to contribute and put them in a bunker somewhere and nuked the rest of us.  I may become goo but I'd feel like the human race might have a chance.

Offline osi

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 09:48:04 »
Whites receive THE MOST in welfare benefits more than any other race in America.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!

Offline hwood34

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 11:03:39 »
Silly how this discussion is mostly about throwing blame on the rioters. The officials in Ferguson did all they could to provoke a riot, and a riot is what they got, not surprising.
But look how well the militarized police force kept them in check :))
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Offline heedpantsnow

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 11:41:21 »

Whites receive THE MOST in welfare benefits more than any other race in America.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!

Do you have official data to back up that claim?  Or did you just hear that from some douche on msnbc?
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Offline osi

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 11:55:08 »

Whites receive THE MOST in welfare benefits more than any other race in America.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!

Do you have official data to back up that claim?  Or did you just hear that from some douche on msnbc?

Here you go. https://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/12statab/socins.pdf


Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 12:54:48 »


Whites receive THE MOST in welfare benefits more than any other race in America.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!

Do you have official data to back up that claim?  Or did you just hear that from some douche on msnbc?

Here you go. https://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/12statab/socins.pdf

Except that "Hispanic Origin" can be from any race, including black or white, but most Hispanics report as white. When compared to the population as a whole, both black and Hispanic are disproportionally high according to that report.
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 18:59:15 »
Except that "Hispanic Origin" can be from any race, including black or white, but most Hispanics report as white. When compared to the population as a whole, both black and Hispanic are disproportionally high according to that report.

I do have something to say to that.

I remember college, and I remember how pissed some of the white students were at the 'victims of racism' claiming all kinds of benefits.

You see, in el mundo Hispania (or is that Hispanos?), the whites also get everything and are not ashamed of it. Except these aren't WASPS with the WASP work culture. These are conquisados and genocidists and oligarchs whose only ambition is to luxuriate in their haciendas while the natives do all the work.

I remember one of the whitest-skin girls getting a full scholarship because she was Hispanic. She was pretty racist; her skin was fairer than many of the Northern-European whites, she was 100% proud of 100% Spanish (no Mestizo) ancestry, she did not speak with an accent or sound like anybody from el barrio with uneducated parents trying to make it to college for the first time, she was from a freaking rich background (hinted at some kind of aristocracy although I don't know how these things work in Spain), and she is getting a scholarship because she is a victim of racism and from an underprivileged and underrepresented community!

I met MANY legal Hispanics in college who did not look 'Hispanic', if you're talking about brown skin or Native looks. Many did not look like they had non-European ancestry. Many did not even have Hispanic surnames!!! (It seemed they were Hispanic whenever they could get something, and white otherwise, such as that blue eyed Otto Maximilian GermansurnameIforgot who was also an underprivileged Hispanic because his ancestors had the misfortune of betting on Mexico in the 19th century.)

Thank you affirmative action! Thank you Harvard for your racist 19th century BS about Asians being all the same and bringing no diversity and contributing nothing to college! (See the recent NYT article by Mounk)
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Offline heedpantsnow

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #45 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 19:31:58 »
There's all kinds of weird stuff going on these days.

I heard about a kid who robbed a convenience store and assaulted a cop who is now some kind of hero.
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Offline 0100010

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 27 November 2014, 23:57:11 »
  Quoting me causes a posting error that you need to ignore.

Offline jackalope

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 28 November 2014, 00:03:11 »
IMO the real tragedy of Ferguson is that the opportunity to start a real conversation about police methods and "protocol" was turned into white vs black and a community shattered.
eh o well

Offline demik

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 28 November 2014, 00:08:04 »
Gateway Arch Bombing Plot Thwarted by EBT

so edgy.


IMO the real tragedy of Ferguson is that the opportunity to start a real conversation about police methods and "protocol" was turned into white vs black and a community shattered.

yup, all thanks to the wonderful media.
« Last Edit: Fri, 28 November 2014, 00:10:05 by demik »
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Ferguson R2
« Reply #49 on: Fri, 28 November 2014, 02:36:23 »
Yeah, I'm not excluding anyone. Black people can and do have welfare mentality as prevalent as Mexicans, whites, or any other race. I just see it more with Hispanics here, due to my geography.
Funny... everywhere I’ve ever lived it was the Texan white guys who were the biggest pricks. :P

Just so long as no more of them get to the white house, we should be okay for a while.
« Last Edit: Fri, 28 November 2014, 02:39:28 by jacobolus »