Author Topic: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?  (Read 17696 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline henz

  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 1284
  • What?
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #100 on: Tue, 31 March 2015, 08:26:58 »
i just built my first 60% im trying it out now, tried some coding(not fun) gaming was ok im guessing it was becuase i didnt need my f keys in WOW :) causal slack srufing etc works nicely. After some usage i guess i miss my tkl :P So yes ppl go back(atleast me)

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #101 on: Tue, 31 March 2015, 11:04:30 »
Were I travelling a lot, I might consider a 60% board.  Really though, I'd likely only drop down to a 75% at most and in all honesty, am more looking at the GH-122 :P

Offline Slaine777

  • Posts: 17
  • Location: Missouri
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #102 on: Tue, 31 March 2015, 21:53:49 »
I have about 25 years of experience using a full sized keyboard.  I'm not a heavy user by any stretch of the imagination but it's what I'm used to.  I rarely use insert or delete.  I use home, end, print screen, the arrow keys, and the number pad (including the mouse thumb number pad enter trick mentioned earlier) enough that I would missing having them.  I sometimes use page up and page down but not as often.  I've been toying with the idea of using something smaller.  I've had a full sized WASD with MX Brown switches for about three and a half years. 
I recently got an itch to have different keycaps and that got me looking into a wider world of keyboards.  I saw pictures of a 75% keyboard for the first time and right know I'm kind of infatuated with them.  I saw 60% keyboards and wondered how exactly those worked.  I saw pictures of GON's keyboards and was filled with keyboard lust.  I want to have a pretty easy time changing out keycaps on whatever I end up with.  I've been looking for a Keycool 84 to try out the 75% layout.  Then I saw someone selling a 60% GON with black switches for a very attractive price.  It's a NS38 instead of a NerD.  I've had it for a few days and I'm trying to learn what the function layer keys are.  I've found F1-F12, Grave mark/Tilda, the arrow keys, delete, home, end, and print screen.  I'm learning how often I use the keys that aren't on the main layer.  I'm not sure that 60% is right for me.  I'd like to give 75% a chance.  I'd like to give MX Clears/Ergo Clears a chance.  I'm still on the 60% learning curve.  I might go back, but I don't know if it will be back to a full sized.

Offline rsac

  • Posts: 47
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #103 on: Sat, 16 May 2015, 19:12:10 »
This thread was quite helpful for me. There is quite a bit of hype on arrow keys in the home-row and minimal keyboards on this forum, and it is good to hear opposite experiences. Now I decided that I should really put arrow keys in the keyboard I plan to make. Nothing stops me of doing an arrow layer latter and then repurposing the keys as F-keys or something else if I decide I don't need them anymore. Putting 4 arrow keys in a keyboard costs little, even in terms of space.

I may have a problem...

Show Image

How many of those do you actually use  :eek:
I just built a few of them. But I plan to rotate them all to use.
I visualized this: 

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 13724
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #104 on: Sat, 16 May 2015, 19:33:58 »
This thread was quite helpful for me. There is quite a bit of hype on arrow keys in the home-row and minimal keyboards on this forum, and it is good to hear opposite experiences. Now I decided that I should really put arrow keys in the keyboard I plan to make. Nothing stops me of doing an arrow layer latter and then repurposing the keys as F-keys or something else if I decide I don't need them anymore. Putting 4 arrow keys in a keyboard costs little, even in terms of space.

I may have a problem...

Show Image

How many of those do you actually use  :eek:
I just built a few of them. But I plan to rotate them all to use.
I visualized this: 
Show Image


In reality  BPS Shirase is NOT using a 60%,  he's using 3x  Ergodoxi.... 

Offline pokkuhlag

  • Posts: 20
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #105 on: Fri, 22 May 2015, 16:02:33 »
I switched from a full keyboard to a 60%, because it was better for my shoulder ergonomics.
(hands in line with shoulders when using a mouse) So for me it has to be 60% or maybe less in the future ;).

It was a HHKB Lite, after it died I switched to Ducky Mini and I was really missing the dedicated arrow keys as well.
So I used Autohotkey to turn the right alt, win, apps, ctrl into arrow keys. This was inspired by the Planck layout.
Shift + new arrow buttons gives me home, pg dn/up, end keys. To compensate for the lost right fn key, I applied shift + bs = del.
This combination softens the transition from HHKB Lite to US ANSI 60%.

Offline Tiramisuu

  • Posts: 329
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #106 on: Fri, 22 May 2015, 16:12:32 »
After 11 months on a 60 I will never go back.   A more programmable, 60 a fully  programmable 40 and a textblade are currently on my lists of must haves.   There was a learning  curve but the ergonomics or the small form factor,  the closer,  mouse and  the increase in desk space where you need it are fantastic.
Keyboard error F1 to continue.

Poker 2, Gherkin, Lets Split, Planck, Filco

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 8123
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #107 on: Fri, 22 May 2015, 16:19:55 »
My 60% keyboard has exactly 60 keys. The main layout is defined using the Nerdy GUI, there is a quick access second layer using Touch cursor with the space bar as FN key, it has the navigation cluster, and two other layers that are accessed using the FN key programmed with the GON, even some macros. I do not see any need to use a full size keyboard.

Offline micr0n

  • Posts: 48
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #108 on: Fri, 22 May 2015, 17:54:00 »
I have been an avid user of the full size keyboard in most of my computing life.  I didn't start using mech keyboards till last summer.  After that bug bit me and 3 months later, I picked up a 75% keyboard (noppoo choco mini 2m) for work.  I was leaning towards a tkl design, but notice that the 75% was even more compact and it still retain the keys that I needed.  It was definitely enjoyable.....for about 6 months.  Then I picked up a 60% (v60 mini) to have a try and see if this would be counter productive.  It's been 2 months now and I can say that it definitely has improved my efficiency.  I know I wouldn't go back to a full size.  I currently use the 75% for home use, but some times I forget that there's dedicate arrow keys on it.   Like someone that had mention of swapping out the caps lock key with the fn, the habit has really gown on me and I definitely enjoy it.  For work use, I'm definitely keeping to the 60% form factor since working in a cube farm, we are limited to space and the 60% form factor really stops me from moving all over the place for the arrow keys.  I mainly do a lot of typing service tickets and testing software.  Not much of data entry, so this move was what worked for me.  I think it really boil down to what is your main activity and what gives you the most efficiency in it. 

Offline nickheller

  • Cherry ML life
  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 1650
  • Location: US
    • hickneller.com
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #109 on: Fri, 22 May 2015, 18:22:54 »
I have bounced back and fourth between 60% and TKL, I will never go back to using a full sized keyboard but I do not mind using a tenkeyless, I do prefer how close my mouse is with a 60% but some times I can not find a 60% keyboard that matches my other requirements and is something I do not have to modify.

Offline Neo.X

  • Posts: 341
  • Location: Mississauga, CA
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #110 on: Fri, 22 May 2015, 20:22:00 »
I love the look at the 60% keyboard, and I use them most at home. But I use my 80% keyboards at work, because I found it's more efficient at work, for example, I can easily press alt+f4 with one hand to close a window.

The real issue I found with 60% keyboard is that, almost all the keysets are for 80% layout, so I end up have a lot of leftovers of function row and arrow keys sitting in dust. which is kind of waste.  :D
All those keyboards will be lost in time....

Offline noisyturtle

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 6497
  • comfortably numb
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #111 on: Fri, 22 May 2015, 20:23:09 »
Yes, because TKL > 60%

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #112 on: Sat, 23 May 2015, 11:53:46 »
Unfortunately I need the six pack, arrow, and fn keys almost constantly, and having those on a separate layer is unconscionably inefficient.

Offline IvanIvanovich

  • Mr. Silk Underwear
  • Posts: 8199
  • Location: USA
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #113 on: Sat, 23 May 2015, 13:09:37 »
I use 60% exclusively... with only exception for some dumb games that are impossible to remap that have essential keys mapped to a function keys, or require both WASD and arrows at the same time which is impossible on my 60%. I broke down and got a TKL to use on such occasion, as I hate having to rearrange half the desk and reboot the PC to attach the PS/2 G80.

Offline Macsmasher

  • Posts: 462
  • Location: Portland, OR
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #114 on: Sat, 23 May 2015, 15:36:55 »
I have an HHKB and a couple RF 87Us. Switching back and forth isn't a problem. And if I weren't a Windows coder, the HHKB would meet all of my needs. However, navigating code is just easier on a TKL.


It's not just navigation. It's highlighting sections of code to copy or paste. So Control + Shift and arrow keys. It's just easier with dedicated arrow keys.

Offline awhitedev

  • Posts: 393
  • Location: Ohio, USA
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #115 on: Sun, 24 May 2015, 08:03:25 »
I have an HHKB and a couple RF 87Us. Switching back and forth isn't a problem. And if I weren't a Windows coder, the HHKB would meet all of my needs. However, navigating code is just easier on a TKL.


It's not just navigation. It's highlighting sections of code to copy or paste. So Control + Shift and arrow keys. It's just easier with dedicated arrow keys.

I'm a Windows coder as well and I can definitely relate. I've been trying different 60% layouts to still code efficiently. The best I've found so far is the split right shift / fn keys and using the hhkb arrow keys. I moved home / end a little closer as well. (l and .) It's been ok but I haven't been able to completely break using a TKL yet. I really hope I can... I love the way 60% looks and it's definitely more practical... less desk space taken up and closer to where your hands rest... not to mention less travel to and from the mouse.

Any other Windows coders here who use 60% care to chime in?



Offline miroslav

  • Posts: 29
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #116 on: Sun, 24 May 2015, 12:03:44 »
I have an HHKB and a couple RF 87Us. Switching back and forth isn't a problem. And if I weren't a Windows coder, the HHKB would meet all of my needs. However, navigating code is just easier on a TKL.


It's not just navigation. It's highlighting sections of code to copy or paste. So Control + Shift and arrow keys. It's just easier with dedicated arrow keys.

I'm a Windows coder as well and I can definitely relate. I've been trying different 60% layouts to still code efficiently. The best I've found so far is the split right shift / fn keys and using the hhkb arrow keys. I moved home / end a little closer as well. (l and .) It's been ok but I haven't been able to completely break using a TKL yet. I really hope I can... I love the way 60% looks and it's definitely more practical... less desk space taken up and closer to where your hands rest... not to mention less travel to and from the mouse.

Any other Windows coders here who use 60% care to chime in?

I'm a Windows coder as well. I find it really hard to use a 60% keyboard as a daily driver purely because of the lack of dedicated arrow keys. My daily driver has been a Shine 4 with Clears but normally I would use my Realforce 87U 55G. If arrow keys weren't the problem them I would use my Poker/V60 more often. HHKB would be the ideal choice for me as I prefer Topre > Cherry for just daily work. I found a way around it by programming the Sniper button on my mouse to be the function key which helps a bit but it's still a hassle. The Ducky Mini is probably one of the better 60% as it allows you to change the caps lock into a function key as I, J, K and L are the arrows. I also have 2 Filco Minila Airs which are pretty good. They have dedicated arrow keys but at the cost of a shortened right shift and the loss of the right control key which I use for copy and paste (I could use the left side but I like to keep hands in home row).

60% boards are awesome for doing small work/gaming but I just don't think that I could keep one as a daily driver. I love the small foot print and what not but I guess for the time being, I will have to live with either a fullsize or TKL.

Offline henz

  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 1284
  • What?
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #117 on: Mon, 25 May 2015, 10:42:20 »
I use 60% exclusively... with only exception for some dumb games that are impossible to remap that have essential keys mapped to a function keys, or require both WASD and arrows at the same time which is impossible on my 60%. I broke down and got a TKL to use on such occasion, as I hate having to rearrange half the desk and reboot the PC to attach the PS/2 G80.

similar issues when trying to get in to bios, my usb 60s doesnt seem to ework before you get into bios. ****ty irritating. then i have to rearrange everything and get my ssk :)  Otherwise id prefer using a 60 at home. when just chilling.

Offline abswyfe

  • Posts: 67
  • I <3 Geekhack
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #118 on: Mon, 25 May 2015, 12:34:39 »
I don't do anything but facebook, play games, read articles, do some household accounting, and now post on forums

I cant see myself ever using anything but the HHKB

I've tried to use a regular keyboard at my mom's house and kept hitting caps lock to copy and paste things and hitting the wrong key for back space

So annoying

Cant comment on all you true geeks who are coders, designers, and so on
Thank you all Destiny supporters and all you fun people in off topic! I think I will try to stick around for a while!

Offline KeypressGraphics

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 73
  • Location: Australia
  • Dare to Dream
    • Keypress Graphics
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #119 on: Mon, 25 May 2015, 12:53:57 »
Having now fully adjusted to my HHKB I have serious difficulty seeing myself using anything else, but if I did it would probably be another 75% board like my Choc Mini.

There doesn't seem to be a reason to justify the larger amount of room a TKL takes up, and as for full-size boards I now regard them as dinosaurs. Actually the main reason I'd ever buy another TKL is that some brands & models of keyboards aren't available in other sizes, but it isn't a very compelling argument.

My experience has been that 60% & 75% boards really take some getting used to but once you do its hard to go back.
May all your key presses strike true.

 
  Choc Mini         HHKB

Offline absyrd

  • CPT HYPE PADAWAN
  • Posts: 3300
  • Location: Philly Burbs
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #120 on: Tue, 26 May 2015, 08:52:16 »
I just got back from my mom's house where I was helping her do some computer file organizing and taxes (yes, she filed for extension).

I've been using my wife's HHKB at home for a few weeks now.

I must have hit \ a ****ing million times.

Must buy HHKB for all friends and family members. Must hit lotto.
My wife I a also push her button . But now she have her button push by a different men. So I buy a keyboard a mechanicale, she a reliable like a Fiat.

Offline Sencha

  • HHKB Pro
  • Posts: 131
  • MX Reds <3
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #121 on: Tue, 26 May 2015, 11:43:55 »
Personally I can't go back. However I say this as someone that plays FPS games with a low mouse sens. Just having even more desk space is a big plus. And the minimalist in me loves small form factor.

Offline chive_

  • Posts: 95
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #122 on: Tue, 26 May 2015, 19:35:11 »
You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
...
- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!

What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?

I code, except that in the period the stats took place I wasn't coding that much. Even when you just answer emails, read, or work on graphics, you use the arrows all the time (or you move your hand to reach the mouse, which is such a waste of time and energy).

I understand the stats would look different for other people, but how much different?

I read that you are using VIM, so you can go away with it somehow, but if you use enough different programs daily you will have to use the arrows. You could remap everything to use HJKL, but it's not always possible, and what a pain. Most people are not going to do it.

I would recommend to someone would is considering the switch to a 60% board to install a keyboard stats program and to look at the stats after one month. The decision is easier then. I have been stupid for not doing it myself a long time ago.
Yeah I do use arrow keys a lot. Definitely not 1/4 of my keypresses though, but everyone works differently. Biggest thing is probably that I am very comfortable with the layout on the Poker II. The Quickfire TK though drives me nuts having to switch numlock on and off to get to the arrows.

I, too, thought that I could not possibly use the arrows that often. :)

Then I looked at the stats and... WTF!?

I agree, to an extent. At my internship, which involves a lot of Visual Basic web dev sort of junk, I find myself needing arrow keys. When I'm at home, surfing the web or gaming, I rarely need the arrow keys.

Guess I should get two keyboards ;D

Offline heedpantsnow

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3692
  • Location: Orlando, FL
  • Old enough to know better
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #123 on: Tue, 26 May 2015, 22:52:23 »
Why don't you guys use arrow lock?  Or does your 60 not have that?
I'm back.

Espresso machine overhaul: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=78261.0

Carbon Fiber keyboard base: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54825

Offline TopreFan333

  • Posts: 422
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #124 on: Wed, 27 May 2015, 00:26:15 »
Why don't you guys use arrow lock?  Or does your 60 not have that?

What is arrow lock?

Offline Air tree

  • Better late than never ^-^
  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 2206
  • Location: Satellite Beach, FL
  • Formerly not demik
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #125 on: Wed, 27 May 2015, 00:47:51 »
Why don't you guys use arrow lock?  Or does your 60 not have that?

What is arrow lock?
It locks the arrows to be on. Without holding Fn, hence "Arrow lock"

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #126 on: Wed, 27 May 2015, 00:56:25 »
Why don't you guys use arrow lock?  Or does your 60 not have that?

Most 60%'s don't have it. My KBT Pure does, but I tend to use right Shift almost exclusively, so I can't lock the right mods as arrows... :(

Matias' small arrow keys are a pretty good compromise, IMHO, somewhat like the MacBook keyboard arrows. Takes up less space so can keep the right Shift.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Photoelectric

  • * Administrator
  • Posts: 6766
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #127 on: Wed, 27 May 2015, 01:01:56 »
I'm trying to like my new 60%, but I use arrow keys a LOT for various tasks, such as frequent photo editing and review, as well as many other tasks, and constantly switching to a fn layer to use the arrows is irritating.  I like the Leopold FC660 layout so much more than the usual 60% layouts.  I think I'd be fine with that for long term use, but otherwise I prefer the minimum of ~75% and the look of TKL+.
- Keyboards: LZ-GH (Jailhouse Blues)M65-a, MIRA SE, E8-V1, MOON TKL, CA66
- Keyboard Case Painting Tips -
- Join Mechanical Keyboards photography group on Flickr -

Offline Sencha

  • HHKB Pro
  • Posts: 131
  • MX Reds <3
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #128 on: Wed, 27 May 2015, 02:10:43 »
I like the FC660 as well. Its just a shame its non standard.

Offline heedpantsnow

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3692
  • Location: Orlando, FL
  • Old enough to know better
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #129 on: Wed, 27 May 2015, 07:10:44 »
My Poker X's have arrow lock: Fn+space locks it on and the right side bottom 3 keys and shift become arrows. Verrrrry handy for aforementioned photo review and also spreadsheets.

So do the other Poker versions not have this? For shame!
I'm back.

Espresso machine overhaul: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=78261.0

Carbon Fiber keyboard base: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54825

Offline paicrai

  • Actually a Jane Austen novel
  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 470
  • Location: sun stuff
  • mindblank
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #130 on: Wed, 27 May 2015, 07:12:53 »
lol yeah
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good **** go౦ԁ ****👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌**** right👌👌th 👌 ere👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯  i say so 💯  thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good ****

Offline berserkfan

  • Posts: 2135
  • Location: Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS
  • changing diapers is more fun than model f assembly
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #131 on: Wed, 27 May 2015, 07:39:11 »
- I use space 10.9% of the time (it's the most used single key)
- I use "E" (the most used letter in many languages) 5.8% of the time
- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!


Did you use some kind of keylogger? This sounds a lot like my use profile, with plenty of use on the navigation (not just arrow) keys. That's why on my Tipro board I have 4 sets of arrows and page up and down for both hands, with End and Home on the middle for both hand. Really like to operate a keyboard with minimal taking off of hands.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline Photoelectric

  • * Administrator
  • Posts: 6766
Re: Once you go 60% do you ever go back?
« Reply #132 on: Wed, 27 May 2015, 11:59:14 »
My Poker X's have arrow lock: Fn+space locks it on and the right side bottom 3 keys and shift become arrows. Verrrrry handy for aforementioned photo review and also spreadsheets.

So do the other Poker versions not have this? For shame!

Oh I have Fn lock programmed too for an arrow cluster, but the inconvenience is in switching back and forth between the fn layer and normal layer frequently.
- Keyboards: LZ-GH (Jailhouse Blues)M65-a, MIRA SE, E8-V1, MOON TKL, CA66
- Keyboard Case Painting Tips -
- Join Mechanical Keyboards photography group on Flickr -