Author Topic: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?  (Read 4484 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jshane

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 18
  • Location: Kissimmee, FL
Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 13:40:27 »
So, I've looked over a number of timelines and historical commentary on posts and I'm scratching my head on something here...

Is the demand really so high that $500.00 keyboards sell out in just a few minutes?

If that IS the case, why would any boutique designer make such a limited run of these items when the very nature of machine manufacturing economics dictates that longer runs are always more profitable?

Seems like having an extra 50 of any given model in the world wouldn't damage it's rarity or it's value significantly considering the demand (apparently) far exceeds the supply.

Is it only for Korean individuals designing these MKB's that make them desirable? Could an American design an MKB and have such a following?!

Is it the allure of it coming from a far away land? Is there a perception that only MKB's from XYZ individual are "quality"? Is it just something that a friend of a friend did and now its a thing?

Help me understand... I might just start doing these in my spare time.

Offline SpAmRaY

  • NOT a Moderator
  • * Certified Spammer
  • Posts: 14667
  • Location: ¯\(°_o)/¯
  • because reasons.......
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 13:44:36 »
.. I might just start doing these in my spare time.

Many have tried, few have succeeded.

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 13:44:57 »
I believe you're speaking of the TGR Jane CE group buy, which sold out within minutes of it being posted for sale. The designer and organizer isn't Korean, actually, he is Malaysian. :)

And the reason for a limited run can be any number of things. In this case, I don't think  the organizer wants to coordinate the shipping and/or assembly of more than 25 units, as he knows his limitations and doesn't want to overextend himself.

Or it could be that, as in this case, the organizer went ahead with production and covered whatever up front costs there were with his own funds. This happens quite often, actually. So the organizer is limited by his own personal finances as to how many can be produced in the run.

The reason they sold out so quickly is that this was a refined version of an earlier keyboard design which had been recently offered. Not enough units of the original were made to satisfy demand, either, so there were many who missed out that were keen to get in on this buy.
« Last Edit: Mon, 16 November 2015, 13:46:47 by jdcarpe »
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline byker

  • Literally Canada
  • ** Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 3136
  • Location: Gone fishin
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 13:46:40 »
Traditionally, most of the custom keyboards come from Korea because it has been easier to find smaller shops that are willing to do smaller orders over there, however recently we have seen more interest in a keyboard made in America (The Mira could be this). An American design could definitely have a big following. In my experience, the demand comes from the keyboard design, not the location it is made.

The demand is pretty high, and although economies of scale will decrease with larger orders, the amount of work for the person running the group buy will increase quite a bit, which is why most group buys have limits. Also, I believe Yutski said that he had put some money upfront to start the production ahead of the group buy, which would also limit the number that are being made.

Hope that helps! :)

Offline jshane

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 18
  • Location: Kissimmee, FL
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:02:45 »
.. I might just start doing these in my spare time.

Many have tried, few have succeeded.

Probably due to the lack of short-run manufacturing experience or the general lack of real-world connections with the machinery and material necessary to execute the project.

I believe you're speaking of the TGR Jane CE group buy, which sold out within minutes of it being posted for sale. The designer and organizer isn't Korean, actually, he is Malaysian. :)

And the reason for a limited run can be any number of things. In this case, I don't think  the organizer wants to coordinate the shipping and/or assembly of more than 25 units, as he knows his limitations and doesn't want to overextend himself.

Or it could be that, as in this case, the organizer went ahead with production and covered whatever up front costs there were with his own funds. This happens quite often, actually. So the organizer is limited by his own personal finances as to how many can be produced in the run.

The reason they sold out so quickly is that this was a refined version of an earlier keyboard design which had been recently offered. Not enough units of the original were made to satisfy demand, either, so there were many who missed out that were keen to get in on this buy.

So I'm gathering that it is more the inefficiency that makes it desirable? The inability to produce in any significant quantity is what makes these have such a cult following or the hope that the next generation will be even better?

And in regard to those that missed out or were keen to get in on this buy... I'd never heard of this person or this keyboard project until two days ago when I decided I wanted something aesthetically pleasing and unusual for an MKB. I would have assumed that finding any of the typical highest end cases/designs would be available in some corner of the internet but I guess that isn't the case.

I don't want my inquiry to be taken as me being negative or sarcastic... I lead R&D for a motor coach company that deals exclusively with celebrities and musicians and I've done some very ambitious projects for the biggest names in the industry... I understand these niche items and how these markets work in my area of expertise, but I'm trying to decide if this is something worth spending free time on, and if it is... What elements make one of these products desirable to a person willing to throw down $500 on a keyboard (a much easier sell than convincing someone they NEED a 2.4 million dollar bus, but still not an easy one).

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:45:16 »
So I'm gathering that it is more the inefficiency that makes it desirable? The inability to produce in any significant quantity is what makes these have such a cult following or the hope that the next generation will be even better?

And in regard to those that missed out or were keen to get in on this buy... I'd never heard of this person or this keyboard project until two days ago when I decided I wanted something aesthetically pleasing and unusual for an MKB. I would have assumed that finding any of the typical highest end cases/designs would be available in some corner of the internet but I guess that isn't the case.

I don't want my inquiry to be taken as me being negative or sarcastic... I lead R&D for a motor coach company that deals exclusively with celebrities and musicians and I've done some very ambitious projects for the biggest names in the industry... I understand these niche items and how these markets work in my area of expertise, but I'm trying to decide if this is something worth spending free time on, and if it is... What elements make one of these products desirable to a person willing to throw down $500 on a keyboard (a much easier sell than convincing someone they NEED a 2.4 million dollar bus, but still not an easy one).

Not necessarily. Sometimes the exclusivity of it makes it more desirable. But in these cases, there is always a point where supply and demand would equalize. Not sure how best to find what that point would be, though.

What you would need to do, if you were to enter this market, is to partner with a well known and respected keyboard designer. You could handle the manufacturing and logistics, but you need someone who knows the ins and outs of good keyboard design to have a successful product.
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline heedpantsnow

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3692
  • Location: Orlando, FL
  • Old enough to know better
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:52:14 »
Both of the recent GB's also used a well regarded PCB. So there's that to consider.

And just to be clear the price point of $350-$450 for a case/plate/PCB kit is important. I'm not sure people would pay much more for one of these. $400+shipping is pushing it for me, and several other folks on here I know.
I'm back.

Espresso machine overhaul: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=78261.0

Carbon Fiber keyboard base: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54825

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:54:49 »
Also, until recently these things were not widely available to us in the west. Korean designs tended to be sold within that insular community only, with only a few outsiders able to source those keyboards.
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline jshane

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 18
  • Location: Kissimmee, FL
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 15:20:43 »
Okay so the PCB's I can understand a standardized preference. My draft board has this circled as I had suspected a custom solution for something fairly standardized would have an unfavorable cost-benefit ratio.

So what board is readily available OR would be the absolute best (the popular opinion) at a price point of $75 or less for a TKL or 60% design?

The firmware I can write or modify if I want some new functionality, so that's not a concern.

I guess the question would come down to switch options on any given board and if there are any boards that have the ability to use more than one type of switch. Say, Cherry MX type and Topre on the same board, for example. My brief searches in the popular engines haven't shown me any.

Offline SpAmRaY

  • NOT a Moderator
  • * Certified Spammer
  • Posts: 14667
  • Location: ¯\(°_o)/¯
  • because reasons.......
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 15:24:29 »
Cherry MX type and Topre on the same board, for example.

You have a lot to learn.  :))

Offline byker

  • Literally Canada
  • ** Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 3136
  • Location: Gone fishin
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 15:25:18 »
What you would need to do, if you were to enter this market, is to partner with a well known and respected keyboard designer. You could handle the manufacturing and logistics, but you need someone who knows the ins and outs of good keyboard design to have a successful product.

+1 :)

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 15:27:18 »
MX and Topre on the same board is not possible. Topre is not a discrete switch, so to speak, but rather a rubber dome over PCB. MX and Alps on one PCB is possible -- see my JD45 as an example. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62641.0

The A.87 and B.87 are standardized (Korean) PCB designs for TKL keyboards. The GH60 and its variants, or the FaceU/FaceW are Korean equivalents for 60%.
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline jshane

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 18
  • Location: Kissimmee, FL
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 15:41:55 »
MX and Topre on the same board is not possible. Topre is not a discrete switch, so to speak, but rather a rubber dome over PCB. MX and Alps on one PCB is possible -- see my JD45 as an example. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62641.0

The A.87 and B.87 are standardized (Korean) PCB designs for TKL keyboards. The GH60 and its variants, or the FaceU/FaceW are Korean equivalents for 60%.

There is no possibility for Topre and MX on the same board or that is just a commonly held belief that it's always been two distinct designs necessary and no variation of a hybrid or the addition of an adapter of some sort would make this possible?

So the options would be finding two boards of each type that share the exact same footprint, mounting points, and depth... Or designing a case with modularity in mind for each of these boards.

I've got my first days off in 18 months and I'm trying to fill the time... It sucks not having anything around to build.

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 15:43:26 »
MX and Topre on the same board is not possible. Topre is not a discrete switch, so to speak, but rather a rubber dome over PCB. MX and Alps on one PCB is possible -- see my JD45 as an example. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62641.0

The A.87 and B.87 are standardized (Korean) PCB designs for TKL keyboards. The GH60 and its variants, or the FaceU/FaceW are Korean equivalents for 60%.

There is no possibility for Topre and MX on the same board or that is just a commonly held belief that it's always been two distinct designs necessary and no variation of a hybrid or the addition of an adapter of some sort would make this possible?

So the options would be finding two boards of each type that share the exact same footprint, mounting points, and depth... Or designing a case with modularity in mind for each of these boards.

I've got my first days off in 18 months and I'm trying to fill the time... It sucks not having anything around to build.

With your free time you could buy an HHKB or Realforce, take it apart, and see in person what you're dealing with in regard to Topre.
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline noisyturtle

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 6497
  • comfortably numb
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 18:40:43 »
To be fair - a good amount of those special/limited edition cases and keyboards are bought up by the same exact group of people who leave them in piles in their apartments and homes. Not used much, in many cases never even opened or built. Just bought and forgotten, set to waste away in an expensive pile while other folks who actually want one of those boards go empty handed.

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 19:15:05 »
To be fair - a good amount of those special/limited edition cases and keyboards are bought up by the same exact group of people who leave them in piles in their apartments and homes. Not used much, in many cases never even opened or built. Just bought and forgotten, set to waste away in an expensive pile while other folks who actually want one of those boards go empty handed.
Hey, it's my money!
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline jshane

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 18
  • Location: Kissimmee, FL
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 19:32:22 »
To be fair - a good amount of those special/limited edition cases and keyboards are bought up by the same exact group of people who leave them in piles in their apartments and homes. Not used much, in many cases never even opened or built. Just bought and forgotten, set to waste away in an expensive pile while other folks who actually want one of those boards go empty handed.


I suspected as much which was the reason for me starting this thread to gauge if it's an actual demand or if a small group of "collectors" are responsible for the appearance of demand.

If anyone cares, I've already made 3 designs and will begin prototyping one later this month. It is completely modular and can be made in a variety of materials... It can be machined or produced with a variety of methods/techniques and will allow for trading custom parts between individuals... Think the keycap trade for keyboard cases. Anybody can make parts on any scale although some materials (like metals) will require more specialized equipment or knowledge.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 13720
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 20:23:06 »
The demand ISN'T that high...  THe $300-500 keyboard community is very very small.. and the buyers don't come all at once..


The reason Artisans can't take off into high volume, is also hindered by the fact that they're NOT vertically integrated..

They're sourcing from many different places,  and there's lots of micromanagement.. which slow things down tremendously..




Offline hwood34

  • underwater squad
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5917
  • Location: USA
  • #1 CL stan
    • Keyboard Illuminati
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 20:28:55 »
To be fair - a good amount of those special/limited edition cases and keyboards are bought up by the same exact group of people who leave them in piles in their apartments and homes. Not used much, in many cases never even opened or built. Just bought and forgotten, set to waste away in an expensive pile while other folks who actually want one of those boards go empty handed.


I suspected as much which was the reason for me starting this thread to gauge if it's an actual demand or if a small group of "collectors" are responsible for the appearance of demand.

It's actual demand
IV KWK Info Thread & KBK Info Thread IV (out of date)

Old GBs: Gateron Switches (2015) | CF-LX R1 (2015) | CF-LX R2 (2017) | CF-LXXX (2017) | Gen.s Gem Caps (2015)

"Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary"

Offline katushkin

  • Too Keycool for School
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3669
  • Location: Birmingham - Not Alabama
  • Just the guy
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 20:30:34 »
Dat green tho
Can we get them to build the Alps ten feet higher and get Cherry to pay for it?
Katushkin's Clearout | Twitter | Steam | Instagram| Discord - katushkin

Offline clacktalk

  • CLACKS RULE EVERYTHING AROUND ME
  • Posts: 739
  • Location: California
  • circa 2015
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 20:35:00 »
ya u should chase your dream making whatever it is you're making and profit bc everyone will want it
diary of a clacktalk

franktalk: how much urine have u spilled
radio_killah: too much frank
radio_killah: too much

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 13720
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 20:39:11 »
ya u should chase your dream making whatever it is you're making and profit bc everyone will want it

This is silly...  I believe a person should chase dreams as you do.. Sure..   but,  it's super hardz to determine how many people would want it "let alone Everyone".

They got phds doing this kind of analysis, and MOST of them get it wrong...

You want to do a run...   The current market trend is.. PREORDER...

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 20:43:02 »
A board with both MX and Topre together would just be a troll board--something for everyone to hate.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline Dernubenfrieken

  • Posts: 471
  • Location: NJ/NY
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 11:18:09 »
A board with both MX and Topre together would just be a troll board--something for everyone to hate.

And buying keycaps for that would be a hilarious exercise in futility.
    

Offline jshane

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 18
  • Location: Kissimmee, FL
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 13:34:42 »
A board with both MX and Topre together would just be a troll board--something for everyone to hate.

I think you misunderstood the line of inquiry... It was asking if anyone had made any attempt to design a PCB (or some adapter variation) that would allow the choice of either switch style on a single PCB design.

I would hope that people wouldn't be so closed minded as to shun efficiency in design which would remove constraints while simultaneously lowering costs. Standardized software, standardized board design, lower manufacturing costs with greater product flexibility, and greater availability in general seem to be all good ideas to me.

I'll admit, I've never even considered building a keyboard. I had to order a HHKB to cannibalize it for the board, but I'm optimistic that I'll answer my question. Whether or not it will be economically viable is another issue entirely, but that's another problem for another day.

Offline Lepidus

  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Brazil
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 13:52:29 »
A board with both MX and Topre together would just be a troll board--something for everyone to hate.

I think you misunderstood the line of inquiry... It was asking if anyone had made any attempt to design a PCB (or some adapter variation) that would allow the choice of either switch style on a single PCB design.

I would hope that people wouldn't be so closed minded as to shun efficiency in design which would remove constraints while simultaneously lowering costs. Standardized software, standardized board design, lower manufacturing costs with greater product flexibility, and greater availability in general seem to be all good ideas to me.

I'll admit, I've never even considered building a keyboard. I had to order a HHKB to cannibalize it for the board, but I'm optimistic that I'll answer my question. Whether or not it will be economically viable is another issue entirely, but that's another problem for another day.

Its just hard picturing something that would be compatible with cherry and topre, as topre does not have  a "closed" indvidual switch. Maybe it would be doable if the case/plate was compatible with a topre pcb and a cherry pcb. But both topre and cherry on the same pcb? I cant even think how something like this would be possible.
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 November 2015, 13:54:23 by Lepidus »

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 14:58:59 »
A board with both MX and Topre together would just be a troll board--something for everyone to hate.

I think you misunderstood the line of inquiry... It was asking if anyone had made any attempt to design a PCB (or some adapter variation) that would allow the choice of either switch style on a single PCB design.

I would hope that people wouldn't be so closed minded as to shun efficiency in design which would remove constraints while simultaneously lowering costs. Standardized software, standardized board design, lower manufacturing costs with greater product flexibility, and greater availability in general seem to be all good ideas to me.

I'll admit, I've never even considered building a keyboard. I had to order a HHKB to cannibalize it for the board, but I'm optimistic that I'll answer my question. Whether or not it will be economically viable is another issue entirely, but that's another problem for another day.

Its just hard picturing something that would be compatible with cherry and topre, as topre does not have  a "closed" indvidual switch. Maybe it would be doable if the case/plate was compatible with a topre pcb and a cherry pcb. But both topre and cherry on the same pcb? I cant even think how something like this would be possible.
It's not.  He'll figure that out once he takes apart a Topre board.
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 16:32:23 »
You would essentially need some kind of hybrid capacitive controller, and a multi-layered PCB so convoluted and expensive that it would defeat the purpose.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline FrostyToast

  • Litshoard
  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 2368
  • Location: Canada
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 17:11:33 »
First of all, I must ask you a question: Why do you want to make a custom keyboard?
This should be a question you automatically answer yourself before even thinking of venturing into the space.
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline Binge

  • Island of Sandy Beaches
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 3270
  • Location: Binge Haüs
  • With Gentle Time. I Feel Very Nice.
    • Hunger Work Studio
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 17:16:33 »
You would essentially need some kind of hybrid capacitive controller, and a multi-layered PCB so convoluted and expensive that it would defeat the purpose.

Not to mention the impossible to acquire topre parts that topre wouldn't make available for GB.
60% keyboards, 100% of the time.

"What the hell Jimmy?!  It was ruined before you even put it up there with your decrepit fingers."

Offline jshane

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 18
  • Location: Kissimmee, FL
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 17:37:20 »
You would essentially need some kind of hybrid capacitive controller, and a multi-layered PCB so convoluted and expensive that it would defeat the purpose.

I'm sure it wouldn't be viable on a small scale but I guess what myself and one of my electrical engineers are scratching our head at is the notion of impossibility. We are of the thinking that the controller should be where the real focus should lie if someone were to do this on any scale (I'm not going to actually build a controller, but we're certainly invested in the thought of this now).

I guess I'm just confused because it looks pretty simple to us and we're in the business of building impossible (or as close to it as one can get). I mean... We've already got two drawings of a topre type switch in an mx-style housing after finding the novatouch variant and technical drawings (pretty smart design from a manufacturing perspective... Not sure about "feel").

First of all, I must ask you a question: Why do you want to make a custom keyboard?
This should be a question you automatically answer yourself before even thinking of venturing into the space.

I build things on a whim from time to time when projects slow or stop at work and it's always a good team building exercise for myself and my guys to get outside of our typical domain. We usually learn something we bring into our future projects.

Last year we built a class 7 baja truck and ran it in the 1000 (none of us had ever built a chassis or racecar before). The year before we built a custom chopper with a very unusual engine layout and features (this was fun as we got one of the former fabricators from WCC to build us a replica tank from one of Jesse James' bikes). We did a really cool frame finish that everyone said was "impossible" (we case hardened a frame to get the color variation you see on shotguns).

For the record, I picked pumpkin cannon and trebuchet to compete in the annual competition this year (because I hate pumpkins, mainly) and we got busy with a few builds. I wanted to just buy a decent enough case that was interesting to look at but found that it's an unusual event to have some come up for sale (which is a shame for those in the community). We have several days to waste and we might as well spend it building or designing something.

If we can bring some creative ideas to this area, why not?

You would essentially need some kind of hybrid capacitive controller, and a multi-layered PCB so convoluted and expensive that it would defeat the purpose.

Not to mention the impossible to acquire topre parts that topre wouldn't make available for GB.

If enough people wanted parts, I'd bet they wouldn't pass up profit that eliminates assembly expenses on their end.

Offline joey

  • Posts: 2296
  • Location: UK
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 17:56:53 »
I mean... We've already got two drawings of a topre type switch in an mx-style housing after finding the novatouch variant and technical drawings (pretty smart design from a manufacturing perspective... Not sure about "feel").
Do share.

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 18:46:03 »
You would essentially need some kind of hybrid capacitive controller, and a multi-layered PCB so convoluted and expensive that it would defeat the purpose.

I'm sure it wouldn't be viable on a small scale but I guess what myself and one of my electrical engineers are scratching our head at is the notion of impossibility. We are of the thinking that the controller should be where the real focus should lie if someone were to do this on any scale (I'm not going to actually build a controller, but we're certainly invested in the thought of this now).

I guess I'm just confused because it looks pretty simple to us and we're in the business of building impossible (or as close to it as one can get). I mean... We've already got two drawings of a topre type switch in an mx-style housing after finding the novatouch variant and technical drawings (pretty smart design from a manufacturing perspective... Not sure about "feel").

Well if you're using an the word impossible in the strictly lexical sense, then no, it's probably not impossible. I mean, consumer-grade 14nm semiconductors are possible, so let's change our verbiage here and say it's implausible. I'll do my best to explain why.

A keyboard PCB for discrete switches is not an inherently complicated design. This is evidenced by the existence of hand-wired keyboards. Most of the PCB is empty space, with through-holes for one or more switch types, and usually through holes and/or SMD solder pads for diodes. (Let's leave out LED backlighting for now, because it will just unnecessarily complicate things, and Topre couldn't support it anyway because of the solid rubber sheet over top of the PCB.) The controller has a simple job: listen for closed circuits and fire the corresponding scancodes. Capacitive PCBs are much more complicated. They have capacitive pads instead of through-holes, and they don't have diodes since capacitance is unidirectional. The lack of holes and solder pads makes for lots of good breathing room for nice, big, round capacitive pads. That's what you want.

Capacitive PCB pads are funny things. Their shape and size have a significant impact on their performance. Once you start drilling arbitrary holes for MX switches, you affect the capacitance in unpredictable ways. Even assuming you could "tune" the pads to compensate for the extra holes, you still have the extra leads to deal with, since you can't double up the capacitive and digital matrices on the same circuit.

If you are talking about developing a discrete Topre-style, rubberdome-over-capacitive PCB switch, good luck. If you thought fine-tuning a production-grade capacitive PCB was hard, try compensating for amateur PCB soldering jobs or, God forbid, a hand-wired board. And what controller are you going to wire it up to? There are currently 0 (zero) hobbyist Topre-compatible controllers.

Assuming you manage to get all this working, who is going to buy it? The issue of keycap incompatibility has been addressed by the Novatouch, followed by a number of up-and-coming aftermarket slider initiatives. So really the only conceivable benefit to a fully-custom Topre board, is layout variation. And there doesn't seem to be much demand for that among Topre enthusiasts.

These are just the first things that pop into my head that make the concept of an MX/Topre hybrid seem highly implausible. I'm sure there are smart folks in the forum who can expand on these points, but if the idea were even remotely marketable I think it would already exist by now.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline bocahgundul

  • a seal
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1842
  • Location: sell me your 5k ples
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 18:59:08 »
To be fair - a good amount of those special/limited edition cases and keyboards are bought up by the same exact group of people who leave them in piles in their apartments and homes. Not used much, in many cases never even opened or built. Just bought and forgotten, set to waste away in an expensive pile while other folks who actually want one of those boards go empty handed.
True missed a group buy  because  i'm buying  snack in grocery store

Offline bocahgundul

  • a seal
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1842
  • Location: sell me your 5k ples
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 19:36:53 »
My idea is to make an alu case for realforce case and pcb that support both alps and cherry mx that fits the case

Offline livingspeedbump

  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 1552
  • Location: Seattle
  • Gentlemen, a bobsled is a simple thing.
    • KeyChatter
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 19:49:39 »
I'm not going to lie, from a community standpoint we can also be a bit finicky as well. A lot of people that participate in these group buys, especially for higher cost items, are going to go with someone that is already established and trusted within the community.

I'd be extremely hesitant to shell out $500 to someone brand new in the community that is still learning about keyboards for a custom.

On another note, is there any reason why you would want Cherry MX mixed with Topre? Have you even tried a Topre board and all of the Alps/Cherry switches available? I like both, but I sure as hell don't want a mix of both on one board. The feels are just too different. Cooler Master and the CTRLalt guys pretty much nailed that issue with their MX compatible Topre sliders.
<- My Collection (so far)

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 20:00:57 »
I'm not going to lie, from a community standpoint we can also be a bit finicky as well. A lot of people that participate in these group buys, especially for higher cost items, are going to go with someone that is already established and trusted within the community.

I'd be extremely hesitant to shell out $500 to someone brand new in the community that is still learning about keyboards for a custom.

On another note, is there any reason why you would want Cherry MX mixed with Topre? Have you even tried a Topre board and all of the Alps/Cherry switches available? I like both, but I sure as hell don't want a mix of both on one board. The feels are just too different. Cooler Master and the CTRLalt guys pretty much nailed that issue with their MX compatible Topre sliders.

I took it to mean one board capable of either, not necessarily both at the same time.

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline livingspeedbump

  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 1552
  • Location: Seattle
  • Gentlemen, a bobsled is a simple thing.
    • KeyChatter
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 20:38:01 »
I'm not going to lie, from a community standpoint we can also be a bit finicky as well. A lot of people that participate in these group buys, especially for higher cost items, are going to go with someone that is already established and trusted within the community.

I'd be extremely hesitant to shell out $500 to someone brand new in the community that is still learning about keyboards for a custom.

On another note, is there any reason why you would want Cherry MX mixed with Topre? Have you even tried a Topre board and all of the Alps/Cherry switches available? I like both, but I sure as hell don't want a mix of both on one board. The feels are just too different. Cooler Master and the CTRLalt guys pretty much nailed that issue with their MX compatible Topre sliders.

I took it to mean one board capable of either, not necessarily both at the same time.

That makes no sense either though. I think it was you that mentioned how poorly, electrocapacitive switches would work with holes for MX/Alps switches in the PCB. Anyone that has ever taken a Topre board apart knows how finicky they can be. At that rate, just make 2 pcbs, but having a Topre/Alps/MX compatible PCB is an even worse idea than pre-mixing the switches on a board.
<- My Collection (so far)

Offline njbair

  • Posts: 2825
  • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
  • I love the Powerglove. It's so bad.
    • nickbair.net
Re: Is the demand for Aluminum MKB's really this high?
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 17 November 2015, 20:53:08 »
I'm not going to lie, from a community standpoint we can also be a bit finicky as well. A lot of people that participate in these group buys, especially for higher cost items, are going to go with someone that is already established and trusted within the community.

I'd be extremely hesitant to shell out $500 to someone brand new in the community that is still learning about keyboards for a custom.

On another note, is there any reason why you would want Cherry MX mixed with Topre? Have you even tried a Topre board and all of the Alps/Cherry switches available? I like both, but I sure as hell don't want a mix of both on one board. The feels are just too different. Cooler Master and the CTRLalt guys pretty much nailed that issue with their MX compatible Topre sliders.

I took it to mean one board capable of either, not necessarily both at the same time.

That makes no sense either though. I think it was you that mentioned how poorly, electrocapacitive switches would work with holes for MX/Alps switches in the PCB. Anyone that has ever taken a Topre board apart knows how finicky they can be. At that rate, just make 2 pcbs, but having a Topre/Alps/MX compatible PCB is an even worse idea than pre-mixing the switches on a board.

Well if we're talking about a pre-configured PCB with Topre for some spots and MX for others, that's more plausible but also more pointless than what I was thinking.

Either way, I don't see the point in going through the effort. Even as a thought experiment, I have a hard time getting past the "why."

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
IBM Rubber Band "Floss" Mod | Click Modding Alps 101 | Flame-Polishing Cherry MX Stems
Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
More
AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps