Electric Cars

[vivalarevolución]

Anyone else interested in electric cars?  I know that electric cars do not have the fire power of the finest internal combustion engines (except Tesla), but I find them incredibly interesting and efficient.  Some of my recent interests and experiences have awakened me to the potential of electric cars, especially the waitbutwhy Elon Musk series and taking a Tesla Model S for a test drive.

Here in Indianapolis, the most American city in America, we are the testing ground for an electric car sharing service called Blue Indy.   From what I have read, the management of the company is not the best, they rushed the roll out, and I found the membership sign-up process to be nearly insufferable, but once I signed up, things are running smoothly.  The stations and cars work well enough.

So yea.  Electric cars.   The future.  Cool stuff.

[HoffmanMyster]

I enjoy them as a concept, but they just seem so boring to me.  I like noise, I like to feel like the car is doing something under the hood.

In other words, I like tactile switches and electric cars are too linear for me.

[raymogi]

This thing is half electric, so yeah, I'm kinda interested in electric cars

[digi]

I took a ride in my friends Tesla, my mind was blown, that thing is silly fast off the line and since the batteries sit in the floor it has a low center of gravity...turns on a dime.

But still too much $$$!

[rowdy]

I enjoy them as a concept, but they just seem so boring to me.  I like noise, I like to feel like the car is doing something under the hood.

In other words, I like tactile switches and electric cars are too linear for me.

http://www.vroombox.com/

[tp4tissue]

I got Internet,  cars are lame..

Moar internets.


Internet is also electric

[rowdy]

I got Internet,  cars are lame..

Moar internets.

Internet in your car with Ergo Dox as steering wheel ...

[tp4tissue]

I got Internet,  cars are lame..

Moar internets.

Internet in your car with Ergo Dox as steering wheel ...

Jokes on you, I live in a car..

Nawh.. just kidding..

but, I really Don't like going outside,   it's just frustratingly slow...  On the internet,  if I want to see anything..  type type type click click,  I'm there..

with a car.. it takes 15 minutes just to get a bagel..   i mean.. sigh... Please god of the internet, upload me..

[Leslieann]

I want the Tesla Killer Porsche, I can't afford it, but it's sooo pretty (and fast!).
http://jalopnik.com/porsche-approves-mission-e-tesla-killer-for-production-1746181738

[tp4tissue]

I want the Tesla Killer Porsche, I can't afford it, but it's sooo pretty (and fast!).
http://jalopnik.com/porsche-approves-mission-e-tesla-killer-for-production-1746181738

You guys arn't being objective..   we're already faster than any car RIGHT NOW,  as wesit in a chair, typing away on the Internet.

All of consciousness and perceptual input is data.. we are data, data is us.   


Convert the cost of the discussion of ideas, (which accounts for the majority cost of being alive for humans today, the organizational cost),   how many miles would have to be driven to achieve the same informational dissemination..

[katushkin]

I like some electric cars, the i8 is nice, and the Teslas are nice, but like Hoff, I like the internal combustion engine. I can't see me moving away from it until there is no other option, or fossil fuels aren't financially viable anymore.

[new_to_theinternet]

If I could afford a Tesla, I would love to own one. I think ideally I'd have an electric car as a daily driver, then a fun "traditional" car for the weekends.

[digi]

I got Internet,  cars are lame..

Moar internets.


Internet is also electric

Didn't you just get stabbed in the neck, riding on the pegs of a bicycle in Hong Kong or something? ) )

[Leslieann]

I like the sound of a nice I.C. as well, I'm just not so sure it's viable for much longer.

Electric is/would be a viable option today, IF manufacturers would do it right, Tesla and Nissan show there's a market. Unfortunately, Teslas are not cheap and Nissan and GM dealers (in the case of the Volt) really don't understand how to sell them, or worse, don't want to because they get less money from repairs on them (mechanics loved it, but dealers HATED the EV1!). Only the informed public comes in to look and then they have to go to the back of the lot to look at them and they probably know more than the person trying to sell them the car. There's nothing I hate more than pushy sales person who knows less than I do about the product they are selling, if you stand in front of me and read from a cue card or the spec sheet, I don't need your help.

I think the IC's on life support. Companies don't want to change and the dealers love the profits (parts and repairs were the only thing that kept Chrysler going as long as it did), but Tesla was a shot across the bow, Nissan was a second warning that things were changing. You may think it's stalled, but look at the latest supercars, almost all are hybrids or electric (who saw that coming?). The major standout is Lamborghini, who was dead set against a hybrid, but look who owns them (VW who also owns Porsche), and look at how their car stacks up against the latest from Porsche, Mclaren, and Ferrari, their car aged 5 years the day those came out. You cannot beat the hybrid supercars with IC, and the same will happen on cheaper cars. On them, it will simply be a stalling measure to keep the IC going longer or get longer range, but the IC's role is going to diminish quickly I think. Companies who don't or refuse to change, are going to become niche or die.

Add in what's now happening due to VW's cheating, governments are now looking much more closely at emissions and fuel efficiency, along with tighter restrictions things are only going to get harder and harder to meet emissions requirements. If it comes down to 70's and 80's style malaise cars with no power or building electric (or hybrids), buyers are going to opt for the hybrid or electric since we now have the option. The same could happen if gas suddenly goes through the roof again, I'm convinced cheap gas is an effort by oil companies to hold off the coming storm.  Look how much alternatives surge every time the gas prices do, and each time we get a little closer. That right there tells you we are on the cusp of a major shift. Yes, we talked about solar and such in the 70's and 80's but the only alternatives to gas that sprang up were either Diesel which was destroyed by GM last time (and VW this time) or were small companies and  and crackpots who had no chance of succeeding. This time you have major companies involved and the public is asking for it and that's a huge shift.

But again, we come back to manufacturers and dealers, their reluctance is the problem, a proper hybrid full size truck, Mustang or Camaro could and would sell, If they would make it, and that's only IF the dealers will sell it. Why don't they? Chevy actually did make a "hybrid" truck, but how many people even knew about them, they made only a few and it was costly so no one bought them, if you've seen "Who Killed the Electric car" it should sound familiar. If you doubt the dealerships influence in car building, look into how dealers stopped GM from from modernizing Buick like they did with Cadillac, they were scared to lose their core customer, who are dying off. Even after seeing what it did for Cadillac, they were still reluctant.


Don't get me wrong, even if I had an electric car, I would still likely have some older car with a nice IC for everything other than general commuting. A nice V8 has few rivals, and old cars are just more visceral, you're a part of the driving experience, not just along for the ride. There are very few new cars I actually like, if you gave me a few million to spend on cars, and I might end up with 2 new cars and they would probably not be what you would expect, the rest would be blown on old cars and a garage to keep them in.

[fohat.digs]

Rather wordy but well said.

It seems obvious to me that whoever could or would bring: (1) a solid viable mid-sized sedan, (2) a small but reasonably roomy SUV, and (3) a small but reasonable pickup with hybrid or all-electric technology that actually worked, would make a killing and rule the industry - if not immediately, then as soon as oil prices spiked the next time.

[demik]

I took a ride in my friends Tesla, my mind was blown, that thing is silly fast off the line and since the batteries sit in the floor it has a low center of gravity...turns on a dime.

But still too much $$$!

dude i sat in my boss's tesla and that **** is dope af.

[rowdy]

I got Internet,  cars are lame..

Moar internets.

Internet in your car with Ergo Dox as steering wheel ...

Jokes on you, I live in a car..

Nawh.. just kidding..

but, I really Don't like going outside,   it's just frustratingly slow...  On the internet,  if I want to see anything..  type type type click click,  I'm there..

with a car.. it takes 15 minutes just to get a bagel..   i mean.. sigh... Please god of the internet, upload me..

You cannot download a bagel yet.

Actually with all these 3D printers and the availability of Soylent]/url] and even an [url=http://aussiesoylent.com.au/]Aussie variety I'm wondering how long it will be before we can download a food pattern and 3D print it with the requisite nutrients.

And slightly back on topic I walk past a bunch of multi-story car parks on the way home, and this one time a car came up the ramp, paused at the top, then turned onto the road and drove off.  I was waiting for the engine noise and thought it had stalled at the top of the ramp.  Not so - it was an electric car.  Kinda weird.

[njbair]

I want the Tesla Killer Porsche, I can't afford it, but it's sooo pretty (and fast!).
http://jalopnik.com/porsche-approves-mission-e-tesla-killer-for-production-1746181738

You guys arn't being objective..   we're already faster than any car RIGHT NOW,  as wesit in a chair, typing away on the Internet.

All of consciousness and perceptual input is data.. we are data, data is us.   


Convert the cost of the discussion of ideas, (which accounts for the majority cost of being alive for humans today, the organizational cost),   how many miles would have to be driven to achieve the same informational dissemination..

This is incorrect. Cloud backup services offer "offline seeding" where they ship you an external HD, you fill it with your data and send it back, because that's the fastest, most efficient way to seed your initial backup. Once you have the bulk of your files in the cloud, the small daily incremental changes can be quickly synced via Internet. But bit for bit, physical transport is still faster than broadband.

See here: https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/

[vyshane]

Sure, I'd consider an electric car as the family car. However, my fun car needs to have an internal combustion engine and three pedals.

[jdcarpe]

I want a car powered by a Mr. Fusion. It is 2015, after all.

[Oobly]

The biggest problem with electric cars is physics... You simply cannot store the entire chemical/electrical energy cycle in a contained unit and expect to get anywhere near the energy density of just storing the important part of it (liquid fuel).

A battery needs to hold all the parts of the cycle, whereas an IC engined vehicle only holds the fuel. The air provides the oxident, and you throw the results out into the atmosphere. Best energy density possible. Simply for this fact alone, larger transport sectors will not be able to go electric, at least until some other form of electricity generation / storage comes to light. Ships, trucks, aircraft, etc, just can't afford to carry around the bulk of a battery system large enough to give them the power and range they need.

Small city cars, though, sure. Electric scooters, bikes and cars up to two seats used for general commuting can manage the battery mass well enough and don't need long range. They're not going to be very exciting, but they are efficient.

What the world really needs for everything larger than a city car is a more efficient IC engine that runs on 100% sustainable eco-friendly fuel and a system to generate that fuel. I believe methanol is the most likely candidate for such a fuel and it can be produced through solar powered processes from captured atmospheric CO₂ and water. This way you can create a true 100% sustainable fuel cycle and the side benefit would be that all the carbon stored in the fuel in liquid form will have been extracted from the air, not merely stopping CO₂ emissions overall, but in fact reducing the amount of atmospheric CO₂.

[Bromono]

Electric cars are defiantly cool and probably will be the future of automotive industry.

But when the battery dies and it costs more to replace it then the car did when it was new....

No thank you.

[Oobly]

Electric cars are defiantly cool and probably will be the future of automotive industry.

But when the battery dies and it costs more to replace it then the car did when it was new....

No thank you.

lol... electric cars, the printers of the future.

Also the environmental impact of producing and shipping the batteries and materials used in construction makes some electric cars have a lifetime carbon footprint similar to IC cars and a worse overall environmental impact depending on where the lithium, etc has been sourced from.

Nice idea for commuting, especially if you already have the infrastructure in place in your home, such as with Tesla's wall battery and solar power solution from Solar City, but not very practical for larger vehicles and IMHO never will be.

A second problem is power generation. A large percentage of electricity in the states is generated by burning coal.

[Leslieann]

The biggest problem with electric cars is physics... You simply cannot store the entire chemical/electrical energy cycle in a contained unit and expect to get anywhere near the energy density of just storing the important part of it (liquid fuel).

A battery needs to hold all the parts of the cycle, whereas an IC engined vehicle only holds the fuel. The air provides the oxident, and you throw the results out into the atmosphere. Best energy density possible. Simply for this fact alone, larger transport sectors will not be able to go electric, at least until some other form of electricity generation / storage comes to light. Ships, trucks, aircraft, etc, just can't afford to carry around the bulk of a battery system large enough to give them the power and range they need.

Electric planes are here or coming, the significantly lower operating costs offset the shorter flight times in lighter aircraft.

Several companies are looking at short range electric big rigs for local deliveries, and many bus and truck builders are looking at hybrids, in fact they will probably reach a hybrid tipping point sooner than cars due to the fuel savings involved.

A second problem is power generation. A large percentage of electricity in the states is generated by burning coal.

It's been estimated that 4 new power plants would be capable of powering all electric cars on the road.
It's easier to control emissions from one stationary location than it is to control emissions from 4 million. Also, a larger power plant puts out less emissions than those many small ones.

The US is quickly moving away from coal, every plant that came online in October of this year, was renewable. Not to mention many proposed coal plants have slowed and many are being redrawn as renewable.
http://cleantechnica.com/2015/12/05/renewable-energy-100-of-new-us-power-capacity-in-october/


As for the carbon footprint,
The study most used to make this claim has a lot of problems... I'd recommend reading a few articles by people who have analyzed that data, and not just George Will who has taken the study as gospel.

[Oobly]

Yes, a hybrid can improve efficiency through a few means, but it increases weight. With a more efficient IC engine (which requires a complete redesign, not just incremental improvements) and a better KERS implementation you can get even better efficiency than a hybrid without the extra weight, which improves handling and reduces consumption even further. For KERS you could use compressed air with well-insulated cylinders and heat exchangers to improve efficiency. Problem with battery KERS is you can't shove all the braking energy in fast enough, so you have to rely on supercapacitors as "buffers", which have even worse energy densities.

You simply can't escape the physics of energy density: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

The most energy dense experimental battery is still more than 12 times heavier than gasoline containing the same amount of energy. And the problem is that even if you develop a much more efficient way to store and retrieve the charge, the chemistry behind the process will still keep you tied to a much lower energy density. Even with carbon nanotube and graphene based electrodes and support matrices, all known rechargable chemistries still have a maximum potential energy density around 10 times that of liquid fuel. You have to carry every part of the process with you, including a sealing and structural casing. Light weight reduces the power needed to accelerate a vehicle (and thus its energy consumption) and facilitates greater handling and safety.

And simply reducing the emissions per vehicle is not good enough. We need 100% renewable energy for transport. IMHO it's better to put our efforts into something that has the long term potential to reverse the carbon emissions, not just reduce them.

As I said, I think electric cars make sense up to the size of a small commuting vehicle, anything larger will be better off with some alternative energy solution. Light planes, okay, but are they including the battery replacement cost in their "running cost" calculations? And it doesn't scale up to passenger transport levels. Or ships, or long range trucking, etc. There is still a need for some other way to get sustainable energy for major transport, the bulk carbon emitters.

I happen to know it's feasible. I know of processes and designs that can be used to achieve this, but it's going to be a long and difficult path to follow to try and get the ideas adopted. Even more difficult if the industry and the public think electric is "the future". That's being shortsighted and ignoring physics. Wishful thinking and conscience-salving with electrics will not stop or reverse global warming.