MX Blacks too stiff, MX Reds too light, which switch to try next?

[Geroximo]

Hi guys,

I'm having trouble finding the perfect linear switch for me.
I began with MX Blacks, but soon realised, that they are too stiff for longer typing sessions.
Next came the MX Reds. At first, the lighter keypress was comfortable, but now I find them too light.
I also tried Kailh Reds. The 50g actuation force felt quite good, but I don't like the built quality of the switches.

So I'm asking you:
Which linear switch should I try next?

[slickmamba]

Hi guys,

I'm having trouble finding the perfect linear switch for me.
I began with MX Blacks, but soon realised, that they are too stiff for longer typing sessions.
Next came the MX Reds. At first, the lighter keypress was comfortable, but now I find them too light.
I also tried Kailh Reds. The 50g actuation force felt quite good, but I don't like the built quality of the switches.

So I'm asking you:
Which linear switch should I try next?

Hey bud, there is nothing really inbetween, you're going to have to mod some switches yourself.  MX red falls around 58g, and MX black falls around 68ish, so 60, 62, 65 will be your next logical places to check out. 


edit: the two systems (MX vs korean) use different rating system btw.

[falkentyne]

Hi guys,

I'm having trouble finding the perfect linear switch for me.
I began with MX Blacks, but soon realised, that they are too stiff for longer typing sessions.
Next came the MX Reds. At first, the lighter keypress was comfortable, but now I find them too light.
I also tried Kailh Reds. The 50g actuation force felt quite good, but I don't like the built quality of the switches.

So I'm asking you:
Which linear switch should I try next?

This?
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1487

[ideus]

There is nothing in between blacks and reds, but if you are open to try tactile switches, I'd say that probably browns or clears may fit your typing style.

[slickmamba]

If you can afford it, I'd highly suggest getting some linear zealios in the range I suggested earlier as well. 

https://zealpc.net/collections/accessories/products/zealioclear

[Geroximo]

Thank you for the replies.
I'm looking for a linear switch, because I don't like gaming on tactiles.
What about Gateron Blacks?
They are rated with a 50g actuation force, which would be slightly heavier than Mx Red, right?

The Zealios are a bit expensive, but I'll keep an eye open for Korean springs. Modding switches is not a problem.

[jerue]

Modding switches is not a problem.

That makes this easier

Lubed Gateron Blacks

or some 62g lubed blacks (mind that the weight is bottoming out, not actuation) - you can go heavier or lighter depending on your preferences, you probably don't want lighter than 55g.

[slickmamba]

Thank you for the replies.
I'm looking for a linear switch, because I don't like gaming on tactiles.
What about Gateron Blacks?
They are rated with a 50g actuation force, which would be slightly heavier than Mx Red, right?

The Zealios are a bit expensive, but I'll keep an eye open for Korean springs. Modding switches is not a problem.

I thought Gateron black was the same as mx black?  I might be wrong though.  Ask around to be sure if they are lighter

[bocahgundul]

Thank you for the replies.
I'm looking for a linear switch, because I don't like gaming on tactiles.
What about Gateron Blacks?
They are rated with a 50g actuation force, which would be slightly heavier than Mx Red, right?

The Zealios are a bit expensive, but I'll keep an eye open for Korean springs. Modding switches is not a problem.

I thought Gateron black was the same as mx black?  I might be wrong though.  Ask around to be sure if they are lighter

Gateron black is smoother. You shoul try zeal clear too

[fuzzybaffy]

Like someone else mentioned... the MX Nature White is a linear switch, that's between the MX Black and MX Red - at 55g.

[slickmamba]

Thank you for the replies.
I'm looking for a linear switch, because I don't like gaming on tactiles.
What about Gateron Blacks?
They are rated with a 50g actuation force, which would be slightly heavier than Mx Red, right?

The Zealios are a bit expensive, but I'll keep an eye open for Korean springs. Modding switches is not a problem.

I thought Gateron black was the same as mx black?  I might be wrong though.  Ask around to be sure if they are lighter

Gateron black is smoother. You shoul try zeal clear too

I'm talking about the spring actuation weight

[jerue]

I thought Gateron black was the same as mx black?  I might be wrong though.  Ask around to be sure if they are lighter

Deskthority rates MX Blacks 10cn heavier than the Gaterons (at 60g vs 50g)

[bocahgundul]

Thank you for the replies.
I'm looking for a linear switch, because I don't like gaming on tactiles.
What about Gateron Blacks?
They are rated with a 50g actuation force, which would be slightly heavier than Mx Red, right?

The Zealios are a bit expensive, but I'll keep an eye open for Korean springs. Modding switches is not a problem.

I thought Gateron black was the same as mx black?  I might be wrong though.  Ask around to be sure if they are lighter

Gateron black is smoother. You shoul try zeal clear too

I'm talking about the spring actuation weight

oh yes but it definitely feel smoother also

[1deeg]

The new Cherry MX Nature White is a linear switch with actuation force in between MX red and blacks. It's currently only available in the Ducky Shine 5.

Gateron Yellows are also linear and require less bottom-out force than MX & Gateron Blacks.

http://imgur.com/a/g1f0A

[ideus]

But Gateron blacks are even lighter than Cherry reds.

[Vittra]

Based on my understanding - the only Gateron switch lighter than Cherry MX Red in terms of actuation force would be Gateron clear - most likely bottom out force too.

I think when people reference force, it should be mentioned if it is actuation force or total force/resistance when the switch is bottomed out.

Since OP is mentioning gaming, bottom out force may actually matter more here. I know that's what made me switch from MX Black to MX Red ~4 years ago. Based on that criteria, the newer Gateron Black, Gateron Yellows and Cherry MX Nature White are all possible candidates.

Force graph comparisons:

http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/mechanical-keyboard-guide#best (Cherry MX Switches)
http://www.cherry.de/PDF/EN_CHERRY_MX_RGB_NATURE_WHITE.pdf (Cherry MX Nature White)
http://imgur.com/a/g1f0A (Previously linked by 1deeg - various comparisons, of note is Gateron Yellow)

[Den441]

Typing on 62g Korean spring reds now. I think it is the perfect linear switch. Definitely feels like something between reds and blacks. To me, reds don't have any springy-ness to them, and blacks can feel too heavy during long sessions. The 62s bring that springy-ness and it feels great. I think it is worth the trouble of modding them.

[chyros]

Ha! These are very familiar symptoms to me. I find the exact same; reds too light and blacks too heavy. Here's what I've found so far.

The truth is; blacks feel too heavy not because they're too heavy, but because they are a terrible switch. They're very scratchy and this makes them feel heavier than they actually are. In my video reviews I use MX black as a kind of benchmark switch and almost always they lose against the alternative (iirc the one time they came out on top was against Cherry MY).

I'm in the process of obtaining a green Alps board, which are lighter and smoother than MX black. They're probably rather legacy for your purposes, but my point is; there are many alternatives to Cherry MX you might not even have heard of.

I've only tried a few test switches, but Gateron blacks feel smoother and lighter than MX black to me, much nicer really. Nixdorfs are also better, but not so easy to get.

[bocahgundul]

Nixdorf are really rare and really expensive if you see somone sells it. My opinion is to get gateron black or zeal clear linear switch 

[Coreda]

Was going to make a joke that Cherry should produce a Goldilocks switch before discovering that such a switch actually exists.

[chyros]

Nixdorf are really rare and really expensive if you see somone sells it. My opinion is to get gateron black or zeal clear linear switch 

Yeah, they're damn expensive. I got lucky, someone gave me a bunch of cool switches for free and it included three Nixdorfs. They remind me a bit of Gaterons, but not as oily.

Gateron blacks are way better than MX blacks, though, IMO. I think you should really check out those .

[tp4tissue]

No, ur all wrong.. 

what you should do , is stick with MX-black, until you break it in.

The spring softens up a bit, and in general, the slider will also smooth up due to friction,

Both- of those factors will make the mx-black feel much much lighter..

[chyros]

No, ur all wrong.. 

what you should do , is stick with MX-black, until you break it in.

The spring softens up a bit, and in general, the slider will also smooth up due to friction,

Both- of those factors will make the mx-black feel much much lighter..

Doesn't testify of a good switch design though, does it? :/

Besides, I've had MX blacks used and almost unused, still didn't like any of them. All too rough and too stiff. But that's just me, of course.

[tp4tissue]

No, ur all wrong.. 

what you should do , is stick with MX-black, until you break it in.

The spring softens up a bit, and in general, the slider will also smooth up due to friction,

Both- of those factors will make the mx-black feel much much lighter..

Doesn't testify of a good switch design though, does it? :/

Besides, I've had MX blacks used and almost unused, still didn't like any of them. All too rough and too stiff. But that's just me, of course.

If you find ANY of the mx-switches 'rough"

it's simply because you're well below the break in point..


This is the case with many of the kids around here, because they don't actually use the keyboard that much..  minus wasd, hahahaha


Smoothness is Significantly improved over time.  It has more to do with the material used in the Mx switch housing.

The slider plastic is pretty smooth right off the bat.

However, the black housing where the slider comes in contact with it is quite rough.

Something around 10,000 keypresses is where it reaches smoothness.


If you're just "TRYING" out the keyboard, you will Not even come close to 10,000

[chyros]

No, ur all wrong.. 

what you should do , is stick with MX-black, until you break it in.

The spring softens up a bit, and in general, the slider will also smooth up due to friction,

Both- of those factors will make the mx-black feel much much lighter..

Doesn't testify of a good switch design though, does it? :/

Besides, I've had MX blacks used and almost unused, still didn't like any of them. All too rough and too stiff. But that's just me, of course.

If you find ANY of the mx-switches 'rough"

it's simply because you're well below the break in point..


This is the case with many of the kids around here, because they don't actually use the keyboard that much..  minus wasd, hahahaha


Smoothness is Significantly improved over time.  It has more to do with the material used in the Mx switch housing.

The slider plastic is pretty smooth right off the bat.

However, the black housing where the slider comes in contact with it is quite rough.

Something around 10,000 keypresses is where it reaches smoothness.


If you're just "TRYING" out the keyboard, you will Not even come close to 10,000

I don't know about you, but I've had over a dozen MX black keyboards, all of them second-hand, and some of them POS boards so well-used the legends were barely even legible. I've had so many of them I'm even done salvaging them for parts, they're not worth the money to sell or the time needed to salvage even more switches (I already have hundreds) .

Regardless, if it takes 10k presses for the switch to be remotely usable, why don't Cherry spare us the trouble and break them in for us? Why do we have to use sub-par equipment for a considerable amount of time before the product supposedly becomes halfway competitive? I'm sure everyone knows the answer to that one xD .

[tp4tissue]

If you find ANY of the mx-switches 'rough"

it's simply because you're well below the break in point..


This is the case with many of the kids around here, because they don't actually use the keyboard that much..  minus wasd, hahahaha


Smoothness is Significantly improved over time.  It has more to do with the material used in the Mx switch housing.

The slider plastic is pretty smooth right off the bat.

However, the black housing where the slider comes in contact with it is quite rough.

Something around 10,000 keypresses is where it reaches smoothness.


If you're just "TRYING" out the keyboard, you will Not even come close to 10,000

I don't know about you, but I've had over a dozen MX black keyboards, all of them second-hand, and some of them POS boards so well-used the legends were barely even legible. I've had so many of them I'm even done salvaging them for parts, they're not worth the money to sell or the time needed to salvage even more switches (I already have hundreds) .

Regardless, if it takes 10k presses for the switch to be remotely usable, why don't Cherry spare us the trouble and break them in for us? Why do we have to use sub-par equipment for a considerable amount of time before the product supposedly becomes halfway competitive? I'm sure everyone knows the answer to that one xD .

THey gotta make money and breaking them in would cost too much money..

Honestly, Yea, if I were them, I would consider changing the housing plastic to be smoother from the get-go..

But the issue is.. this is not a 'technology' in dire need of innovation.


We here at Geekhack are the too 'few' people who gives a damn about how the keyboard looks and feels..

The majority of the keyboard users out there do not..

[jcoffin1981]

I don't k now these switches personally, but have you looked into Gateron or Matias?  They may have a linear switch more suited for your needs.

[x9Memoriez]

If you can try to find a keyboard that has Gateron Blacks, you might enjoy those.

Slightly heavier than reds, but not as heavy as MX Blacks, theyre about the mid point, they're also arguably much smoother than their cherry brothers.

You're sadly either going to have to build a keybord yourself or find some deal off Massdrop where Gateron switches are an option, as theyre not all that common, but very well regarded.

[MeltingTeeth]

But Gateron blacks are even lighter than Cherry reds.

No.  Not correct.

[Giorgio]

the cherry silent switches are been reds and blacks

Currently available on the corsair strafe silent.

[Geroximo]

Hi,
want to give a little status update.

Meanwhile I layed hands on some vintage MX Blacks and Gateron Blacks.

Vintage Blacks:
Nice switch, smoother and a tiny bit lighter than modern MX Blacks. They still feel a bit too heavy for my taste. I will try to get some 65g springs for them.

Gateron Blacks:
Wow. This was what I was looking for. Smoother than modern MX Blacks and right between MX Red and MX Black in actuation force. I am very happy with this purchase.

[merlin64]

Thanks for the update.

In terms of actuation force, do you feel they are closer to Cherry MX Reds, or to Cherry MX Blacks?

[crickclackman]

There is nothing in between blacks and reds, but if you are open to try tactile switches, I'd say that probably browns or clears may fit your typing style.

Gaterons are in between.


http://www.imgur.com/a/MjDTX

[lootbag]

Vintage Blacks:
Nice switch, smoother and a tiny bit lighter than modern MX Blacks. They still feel a bit too heavy for my taste. I will try to get some 65g springs for them.

Gateron Blacks:
Wow. This was what I was looking for. Smoother than modern MX Blacks and right between MX Red and MX Black in actuation force. I am very happy with this purchase.

Interesting to hear!
I have krytox lubed vintage blacks with 68g springs and find them a tad bit heavy as well.
Considering a spring swap for the vintage blacks as well, 62 or 65g.

Recently ordered some Gateron Yellows and hoping I will like them.
That being said I don't see how they can be even smoother than the vintage blacks.

Used to daily MX reds when they were first released and found them a bit light (a little scratchy too), which resulted in too much clackiness on the bottom out.
Maybe I need to expand to the tactile territory again with some zealios...

[Geroximo]

In terms of actuation force, do you feel they are closer to Cherry MX Reds, or to Cherry MX Blacks?

To me they feel like they are exactly in the middle between MX Reds and MX Blacks.

Considering a spring swap for the vintage blacks as well, 62 or 65g.

Recently ordered some Gateron Yellows and hoping I will like them.
That being said I don't see how they can be even smoother than the vintage blacks.

I actually tried the 62g vintage blacks already. I found 62g to be too light for me. That's why I want to trade my 62g gold plated springs for some heavier springs. Would you like to trade?

I don't think Gaterons are smoother than vintage MX Black, but they are very close.

[lootbag]

I actually tried the 62g vintage blacks already. I found 62g to be too light for me. That's why I want to trade my 62g gold plated springs for some heavier springs. Would you like to trade?

I don't think Gaterons are smoother than vintage MX Black, but they are very close.

I would consider trading but my 68g springs are currently in my Duck Viper and too busy to desolder everything right now.
Interesting info about the Gaterons and vintage MX Blacks; I guess I will find out when my Gateron Yellows arrive.

[clacktalk]

tldr

55g vintage blacks or nono

[bocahgundul]

tldr

55g vintage blacks or nono

What springs? Korean SS or gold springs legitballin?

[clacktalk]

tldr

55g vintage blacks or nono

What springs? Korean SS or gold springs legitballin?

korean gold only choice of course

[bocahgundul]

tldr

55g vintage blacks or nono

What springs? Korean SS or gold springs legitballin?

korean gold only choice of course

Where u buy your springs clacks?

[OTD]

Getting custom springs from a GB participant or from a re seller and lube modding an mx red or black will be your best option sir.

[TalkingTree]

I have experience with either Cherry MX Blacks, Cherry MX Reds and Gateron Blacks. I can vouch for Gateron Blacks being intermediate between aforementioned Cherry MXs.
I bought 250 units for € 55 on Aliexpress. PM me for details, I'll point you to the vendor.

[appleonama]

Try some Gaterons or linear zeals

you can also try modding some switches with different spirngs

[Sku]

Gateron Yellows.

They are stiffer than Reds, lighter than Blacks, smoothest of all.

By far the best switches available out there, in my humble opinion.

SPECS:

They activate at 55g (same as Gateron Blacks) and bottom out at 65g (Gateron Blacks @ 70g).

http://m.imgur.com/a/g1f0A

Credits to Ripster and MiTo.

[Sku]

Just realized you already went for Gateron Blacks, wonderful choice!

[yomammary]

Edit: Nevermind.

[klennkellon]

Try Kailh Reds or Kailh Yellows.

I measured around 50g actuation, which is right between MX Black and MX red

[jacobolus]

Some good choices:

* Green Alps
* White Hi-Tek “space invaders” (might be a bit too stiff for your preference though)
* Black Gateron
* Spring-modded linear Cherry MX
* Red Matias using the springs from clicky Matias (swapping the springs improves both switches)
* Alps or Alps-inspired switches (e.g. SMK or Omron) with the click leaf removed

If you’re willing to use stuff from the 70s (especially if you’re willing to mod it), there are a lot of great old linear switches. Most of them are about as stiff as black MX or stiffer though, and only come on keyboards with older funky layouts. Some might be tough to get working with modern computers.

* * *

Has anyone ever seen “Cherry MX RGB Nature White” switches in the wild? https://www.cherry.de/PDF/EN_CHERRY_MX_RGB_NATURE_WHITE.pdf

Geekhack discussion: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=76240.0

[MeltingTeeth]

The Nature White is shipping.

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=277


https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/441n2d/review_ducky_shine_5_cherry_mx_rgb_nature_white/

[Hyde]

Hi guys,

I'm having trouble finding the perfect linear switch for me.
I began with MX Blacks, but soon realised, that they are too stiff for longer typing sessions.
Next came the MX Reds. At first, the lighter keypress was comfortable, but now I find them too light.
I also tried Kailh Reds. The 50g actuation force felt quite good, but I don't like the built quality of the switches.

So I'm asking you:
Which linear switch should I try next?

This?
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1487

Like someone else mentioned... the MX Nature White is a linear switch, that's between the MX Black and MX Red - at 55g.

The new Cherry MX Nature White is a linear switch with actuation force in between MX red and blacks. It's currently only available in the Ducky Shine 5.

Gateron Yellows are also linear and require less bottom-out force than MX & Gateron Blacks.

http://imgur.com/a/g1f0A

The Nature White is shipping.

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=277


https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/441n2d/review_ducky_shine_5_cherry_mx_rgb_nature_white/

^ What they said.

The Linear Nature White was designed to go between MX Black and MX Red.

Currently Ducky owns the exclusive right to use them.