Author Topic: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?  (Read 4216 times)

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Offline suicidal_orange

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Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« on: Thu, 24 November 2016, 17:10:11 »
My computer died and I'm unsure if it's the motherboard, CPU and/or RAM which is to blame and have no way of isolating them to find out, so seems I have to buy all three.  I already gambled it could have been the PSU issue and it isn't, unless it took something down with it...

If I'm reading correctly Skylake is around 25% faster at the same clocks so if I drop to an i5 I'll only be able to encode 8 threads at 4x1.25=5 instead of 8x0.9375=7.5 (guessed a penalty for HT) relative speed - that's a 50% performance hit, made worse by the fact anything else going on at the time will use a bigger percentage of the available CPU time.  But of course I can't even match my current clock speed without buying an expensive motherboard and hoping to not get a poor clocking CPU, or by buying an expensive 6700k and putting it at stock in a cheap board and getting close - either I have to spend serious money to get a 25% upgrade (which I don't need) or I have to pay a not insignificant amount of money for a downgrade!

It's been 5 years and four generations of CPU and instead of improving power usage has gone up slightly along with small gains in speed.  I used to like planning and building computers but this is just depressing...
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 24 November 2016, 17:18:48 »
I thought it was just a hard drive? :(

I too have been searching for a new pc without much luck it making a final decision.

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 24 November 2016, 17:22:31 »
My computer died and I'm unsure if it's the motherboard, CPU and/or RAM which is to blame and have no way of isolating them to find out, so seems I have to buy all three.  I already gambled it could have been the PSU issue and it isn't, unless it took something down with it...

If I'm reading correctly Skylake is around 25% faster at the same clocks so if I drop to an i5 I'll only be able to encode 8 threads at 4x1.25=5 instead of 8x0.9375=7.5 (guessed a penalty for HT) relative speed - that's a 50% performance hit, made worse by the fact anything else going on at the time will use a bigger percentage of the available CPU time.  But of course I can't even match my current clock speed without buying an expensive motherboard and hoping to not get a poor clocking CPU, or by buying an expensive 6700k and putting it at stock in a cheap board and getting close - either I have to spend serious money to get a 25% upgrade (which I don't need) or I have to pay a not insignificant amount of money for a downgrade!

It's been 5 years and four generations of CPU and instead of improving power usage has gone up slightly along with small gains in speed.  I used to like planning and building computers but this is just depressing...

Can you use unpaired RAM to check?  At least you'd know that. 

I had a similar conundrum a bit ago (even down to the trying the PSU), and it really sucks with the way that hardware and more importantly prices are scaling.  Do they even make your current MB/CPU right now?

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 24 November 2016, 17:48:39 »
I thought it was just a hard drive? :(

I too have been searching for a new pc without much luck it making a final decision.

I had a problem, the hard drive made a bit of noise so I suspected that.  Finished copying everything from it, did a zero fill format successfully and shut it down for the first time in 3 days, but the next boot only got to the login prompt and now it doesn't even wake up the monitor...

I had a look in your thread but all the suggestions had graphics cards.  Moving from a laptop to desktop should be a nice upgrade unless your laptop was barely movable and had an SSD - what's your hesitation?

Can you use unpaired RAM to check?  At least you'd know that. 

I had a similar conundrum a bit ago (even down to the trying the PSU), and it really sucks with the way that hardware and more importantly prices are scaling.  Do they even make your current MB/CPU right now?

I know that no single stick works - that probably means the RAM is fine, unless the mobo fried it all.  There was no bad smell so I'd guess it's ok - maybe I should be looking for the last hoorah of DDR3...

The 2600 was launched in 2011 and is listed 'end of life' on Intel's site, I could buy a use replacement on ebay for more than 1/2 the price of a new 6600k and a comparable mobo isn't much less.  Neither are available new on my three favourite buying sites.

What did you do to find the problem, or did you have to replace it all?
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Offline chuckdee

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 24 November 2016, 18:15:19 »
I wish you'd had this a month ago- I just threw away two sticks of DDR3 I'd just had sitting around for about 6 months.

I took a gamble and got a new MB since at the time the sockets were compatible- sandy bridge to ivy bridge.   I ended up doing exactly what you said,  however...  Buying RAM and a CPU to go with it.  It was no worse than if I'd done that from the beginning other than the work involved.  I usually upgrade on the tock- that was my first time upgrading on the tick.  Yours is quite a bit different,  and has me dreading my next upgrade.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 24 November 2016, 18:44:28 »
Ram when bad, will almost always trigger a beep code (if the speaker is connected), as will a lack of video card, which means it's all but certain to be a cpu or mobo fail.

Even if you figure out if it's the cpu or the mobo, you still don't know what caused it to fail or how much damage it did to the other part. It could also be that the PSU over or undervolted, causing damage. The hard drive making noise would indicate a drive failure, but again, that can trace back to the psu, too.

A bad PSU is the scariest.
If the psu goes bad, there's no telling how much in the system is good at this point, and how much re-using them can damage anything you connect to them. My advice would be to get a used mobo off Ebay or a friend that you know is functional and run a good system diagnostic. I wouldn't be surprised if the hard drive fails soon regardless as noise is never good, same for any dvd drives. Motherboards have some voltage protection that drives often lack, so the cpu may be okay which is why I would start with a used mobo you can afford to destroy. If it works, you get off with a used mobo, if it fails, you aren't out a ton of money. I've had two go bad, and I spent weeks chasing down gremlins after.


Basically you have a choice, replace mobo and psu, and hope for the best, possibly chasing gremlins down for weeks or months, or replace pretty much the entire system. That may include video card, unfortunately.
« Last Edit: Thu, 24 November 2016, 18:46:04 by Leslieann »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 24 November 2016, 18:44:38 »
Typical!  Though if I stick good RAM in there's a chance it will die, would be better to test the CPU/RAM in a different board.  If only the world hadn't gone laptop crazy.

Hopefully nothing much happens and your current setup has a long and happy life, by then there might be a worthy upgrade.


An i7 5775C in a Asus Z97-p appears to be the best DDR3 option, comes out £35 more than a 6700K and cheap Z170 but hopefully no need to buy RAM and has a much better IGP - strangely tempting :))
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Offline Badwrench

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 24 November 2016, 19:02:48 »
I agree with leslianne in replacing the mobo with a board off ebay or maybe open box from newegg.  It is unlikely that the cpu is gone.  I think I have a spare stick of 2gb ddr3 that I use for testing that I can send that to test. 

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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 24 November 2016, 19:28:45 »
Ram when bad, will almost always trigger a beep code (if the speaker is connected), as will a lack of video card, which means it's all but certain to be a cpu or mobo fail.

Even if you figure out if it's the cpu or the mobo, you still don't know what caused it to fail or how much damage it did to the other part. It could also be that the PSU over or undervolted, causing damage. The hard drive making noise would indicate a drive failure, but again, that can trace back to the psu, too.

A bad PSU is the scariest.
If the psu goes bad, there's no telling how much in the system is good at this point, and how much re-using them can damage anything you connect to them. My advice would be to get a used mobo off Ebay or a friend that you know is functional and run a good system diagnostic. I wouldn't be surprised if the hard drive fails soon regardless as noise is never good, same for any dvd drives. Motherboards have some voltage protection that drives often lack, so the cpu may be okay which is why I would start with a used mobo you can afford to destroy. If it works, you get off with a used mobo, if it fails, you aren't out a ton of money. I've had two go bad, and I spent weeks chasing down gremlins after.


Basically you have a choice, replace mobo and psu, and hope for the best, possibly chasing gremlins down for weeks or months, or replace pretty much the entire system. That may include video card, unfortunately.
Thanks for the thoughts :)

I already bought a new psu, the old one tested ok on a freebie tester but it's still the easiest thing to swap so I did.

The board has no speaker but it does have error LEDs for RAM, CPU, GPU and boot disk - I've seen them all over the past couple of days, no more than two at a time.  Today with the new psu there are none but that didn't make it boot so can't say I trust them...

(un)Luckily there is no expensive gpu to worry about as I use the integrated one (not so good for debugging)

Will probably buy new but if the old cpu works I could upgrade my parents with an ebay mobo, pretty sure I won't find one that old at any retailer, even with an open box :))
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 24 November 2016, 23:14:25 »
I would hook the old psu back up again just to see if the board lights up again, but only for a short time just to see if the system will fire up. Once this is over, i would trash it, so basically you needed a new psu anyhow.

The problem with psu's is that they can test good on a tester and still be bad. I had one that was sending low amperage to the 5v line, destroying a ton of thumbsticks, and another was sending 12v down the 5v line at random intervals. The cheap testers are good to see if it's dead, but nothing more than that.
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Offline chuckdee

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 25 November 2016, 08:04:20 »
I was finally emptying the trash in my office this morning, and realized that I still had those sticks of RAM.  They're in the package, and I can ship them out to you if you're interested.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820104203

Just let me know.

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 25 November 2016, 08:52:42 »
I had this same issue a few months ago.  Luckily, all I need was the motherboard.  But it's hella frustrating when you don't have a different setup to test components on.
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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 25 November 2016, 09:36:22 »
You wanted us to make you feel better about having to get a new one.  I will say that I went through a similar situation.  I had a x58 board with a i7-920 in it that died.  Pretty sure it was the mobo or psu or both.  Wasn't willing to spend $300 on a 5 year old used mobo from eBay so I built a new system.  Yes the specs look underwhelming on paper, but my new build (x99) is very nice and now I haven't had issues in close to a full year.  Up and running for a year w/o a single glitch.

I don't know if it's just windows 10 or the fact that manufactures I went with this time have better QC, but it feels vastly superior to my x58 build.

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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 25 November 2016, 13:21:44 »
Thanks guys, I will hold off accepting international shipments of RAM until I've confirmed mine's dead - will be taking it to work tomorrow to do that.

The old PSU is still under warranty (7 years!) so if confirmed dead I'll be claiming on that not trashing it.  Tried new PSU today - just the CPU LED lit up.  Swapped to the old one - same.  New one - same.  While my work PC runs memtest I'll be heading to the local used tech/pawnbroker shop looking for a compatible $20 celeron to test with.

Thanks for the LED suggestion, had to laugh as the only time my current board glowed was as it was dying and that's because my case is old and steel - the definition of glowproof :))
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 26 November 2016, 10:04:21 »
Got up feeling more positive, ordered the 5775C and a motherboard to be delivered tomorrow and headed to work to test the RAM.  When I arrived I was not alone there were IT people around, so I couldn't do anything.  Grabbed my fountain pen and left to find a CPU but the two second hand shops didn't have one and the computer shop was closed, so no motherboard testing either.  To top it off I got back to find an e-mail saying that the 5775C is discontinued, not in stock and never will be...  Cancelled the order as I won't be wanting that motherboard without a CPU, especially with expensive Sunday delivery :(
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 26 November 2016, 12:12:03 »
Got up feeling more positive, ordered the 5775C and a motherboard to be delivered tomorrow and headed to work to test the RAM.  When I arrived I was not alone there were IT people around, so I couldn't do anything.  Grabbed my fountain pen and left to find a CPU but the two second hand shops didn't have one and the computer shop was closed, so no motherboard testing either.  To top it off I got back to find an e-mail saying that the 5775C is discontinued, not in stock and never will be...  Cancelled the order as I won't be wanting that motherboard without a CPU, especially with expensive Sunday delivery :(



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Offline captsis

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 28 November 2016, 20:27:30 »
I dont think its ram. A user above was correct in saying that if the ram was bad there would be a beep code. CPUs and PSUs rarely fail (unless you got a cheap PSU) so most likely not that. I think the most likely failure was the mobo.

Online pixelpusher

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 28 November 2016, 21:41:09 »
I dont think its ram. A user above was correct in saying that if the ram was bad there would be a beep code. CPUs and PSUs rarely fail (unless you got a cheap PSU) so most likely not that. I think the most likely failure was the mobo.

^ This

I've honestly told multiple people to just buy two motherboards when they do their initial build.  Seems to always be the weak point and it's not easy to find one after a few years have passed.

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 29 November 2016, 19:15:19 »
I dont think its ram. A user above was correct in saying that if the ram was bad there would be a beep code. CPUs and PSUs rarely fail (unless you got a cheap PSU) so most likely not that. I think the most likely failure was the mobo.

^ This

I've honestly told multiple people to just buy two motherboards when they do their initial build.  Seems to always be the weak point and it's not easy to find one after a few years have passed.

Motherboard was my problem on both my desktop build and a laptop I just had repaired under warranty.  Seems like if you don't handle it like it prefers to be handled, it starts acting up.

But who knows, really.  Best bet is to find an acquaintance with a similar build and test out the parts on their build.
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Offline atarione

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 29 November 2016, 20:05:40 »
if it was me ..I'd take the mb out of the case and set it up on a box with the bare minimum items (psu ,ram , cpu... well and monitor and keyboard).

I'd reset the cmos /and or replace cmos battery as given age of rig battery may well have died.

I experience a computer that acted totally dead .. turns out somehow it had started shorting the mb out on the case somehow..  u can fire up mother board while out of case with a screw driver tapping the power header pins briefly.

additionally getting the motherboard out of the case will let you take a look at it for bulging caps and or any burnt looking items ..  but do try swapping cmos battery / clearing cmos if you haven't done so already.

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 22 December 2016, 18:43:08 »
Figuered I should post an update on this - the RAM was indeed fine.  The only cooler I have is a waterblock so can't test it out of a case until I get my first heatsink in 10 years for Christmas, but the old mobo smells fine.  The caps are all the newer one piece ones so nothing to see...


In the mean time I got a 5775c and a lovely looking Z97X-SOC Force mobo (orange :))) - it's been worse than I thought possible.  Widows 7 updates don't like working, no choice but to go online to copy/paste endless dll (un)register scripts and I don't  want to.  It boots though, so time to try and reinstate my much preferred Linux.

Turns out the well over a year old IGP needs a newer kernel than was available in Mint Debian and software rendering is not fun.  Look on distrowatch - new Fedora, surely that will do for now?  Yay, proper graphics! Not usable though, it spews SELinux permission errors and my USB soundcard refuses to make a sound.  Next distro didn't like my PCI-E SSD.  Next Debian with backported kernel, surely that will work?  Nope!  IGP needs new xorg too...

Back to windows.  After a couple of risky nights online got it updated.  Time to try some light overclocking, stress tests can run while I wrap presents.  This board is made for overclocking yet I can't stop it throttling the CPU when the stock tdp is reached (there are settings in the bios, guess they don't work for Broadwell) and manually setting any multiplier for standard or turbo results in a boot failure at the first blue screen of Windows.  There is one option that works, labeled k series OC - it sets turbo to 39 from 37, but only if RAM is at 14x or below.  39x102.3 is less than 4ghz, with slow RAM :(  Latest beta bios, no change.

In the hope it would help bought 2x8gb to replace the 4x4gb, no change.  Back to official bios, no change. Retried the 1.25 strap but forgot to lower edram multi and guess what?  I now have another mobo/cpu combo that does nothing.  The diagnostic code display doesn't even light up despite resetting cmos and pulling the battery for a minute.  And yes, I've tried the old RAM.  Did I mention I use watercooling and liquid metal tim (the sheets so it's not a badly timed short)?  That means the mobo warranty is invalid and likely the CPU too.

Maybe the laptop buyers are on to something, much as I hate to say it this just isn't fun.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Can anyone make me more positive about a computer 'upgrade'?
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 28 December 2016, 09:34:29 »
Next update - ordered an Asus Z97 Pro from amazon warehouse, arrived this morning with bent pins and didn't work - fastest return request I've ever made at under 30 mins from delivery.  Might work out OK though as more research revealed 'unsupported' CPU's will boot, just no IGP until the bios is updated.

Armed with this new info I ordered my first ever micro ATX board - an ASRock Z97M formula OC.  8 phase power should be enough with a ~80w tdp overclock and it has profiles if manual mode is as crippled as the last board.

Of course it's not available with a guaranteed delivery date, that would be too easy!  Have to hope my luck improves, it has to sometime :-X
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