I hate cherry browns, will I like clears?

[bluejeans]

At first I thought it was a poor quality keyboard but over on reddit they said it was an ok brand.  Browns feel very membrane-y to me.  I already have a blue and green when it comes to tactile, honestly I just want a clear to be able to say I've got one of every switch type rather than wanting to actually use it a lot.  Do clears feel like a green without the noise?  Just trying to talk myself out of getting it because the prices on them are absolutely insane.

[rsadek]

In my experience greens and clears feel rather different. I'd say skip it

[MajorMajor]

WASD probably has the best prices on Clears I have seen.

There's a chance you might like them, the extra stiffness does a lot in terms of making them feel more mechanical IMO.

[ideus]

I am typing on greens with soft springs now. They do not feel any close to clears. Greens have a strong ping sound, like if you were typing on an old type writing machine. Clears have a nice deep sound. Clears feel very heavy, even with soft spring a-la Ergo. I do not like browns and I really like Ergo-Clears and my version of Ergo-Greens. But, I do not think that the experience is the same for everyone. You should do your homework.

[Puddsy]

In my experience, Clears are what browns SHOULD be.

I hate browns, but love clears.

[merlin64]

I'm a big fan of ergo clears with 65g korean springs, I'm a bigger fan of 65g Zealios.

I don't really like plate mounted browns either, but I absolutely love them when they are PCB mounted. Having vintage ones are a plus too!

[noisyturtle]

Browns are my 2nd least favorite MX switch. Ergo/Panda clears are my favorite MX switch. Make of that what you will.

[Boskr]

Agree, browns feel very membrane-y to me. Love reds and blues, but my experience with more switches is limited.

[chyros]

Clears aren't really more tactile than browns are, you're probably better off with something else.

[bitcars]

I mainly use keyboard for coding and typing. Didn't like browns much either. I moved on to Zealio 65g, MX clear, and blue. So I'd share some of my own experience.

Zealio is a clear winner among the 4 types of switches in stock config. As for clear, its initial tactile bump is pretty similar to Zealio, but where separates it seems to be the heavy cushion force after the bump. To me it feels like the switch is 'resisting' my fingers, which takes away some fun in typing for me. Some people, however, prefer that.

But if you are up for modding, Clears have tons of potential. After swapped spring with blue and generously lubed by Krytox, the (Ergo) Clear becomes by far my favourite, I prefer them to the Zealio's, superior in refineness of feel and sound, and more fun to type.

I say give Clear a try if you are curious. But don't expect it to be perfect.

[happylacquer]

I hated browns but theyre not terrible on the Kinesis advantage as they are normal boards. I'd never type on a non Advantage with browns. I do want to try clears in the Advantage and make the thumb buttons linear.

[need]

Clears aren't really more tactile than browns are, you're probably better off with something else.

Are you sure... to me clears are so much more tactile than brown.

[chuckdee]

Clears aren't really more tactile than browns are, you're probably better off with something else.

Are you sure... to me clears are so much more tactile than brown.

That just means that it's personal preference.  I like Browns better than Clears.

[falkentyne]

Perhaps he means "tactile" in a completely different way.
MX clears have double the size of the "bump" that MX Browns do, so you feel a larger bump resistance.

It *IS* true that MX clears DO feel somewhat like the bump feels on MX greens, but without the slider and click mechanism, so I can understand how someone could say "clears feel like greens without the bump." although the bump on greens (that are part of the click mechanism) feels even firmer.  But greens feel like a bastardized and cheapened version of a buckling spring.  Think of a Chinese keyboard that tried to copy the buckling spring feel and boom, you have greens.

MX Browns really should all come standard with the MX clear shaft, IMO.  I have NO idea why Cherry hasn't done this.

[happylacquer]

I was thinking I might have been crazy for not thinking browns had almost any actuation bump!

[alienman82]

removed.

[bitcars]

MX Browns really should all come standard with the MX clear shaft, IMO.  I have NO idea why Cherry hasn't done this.

Would switch pop back be a little sticky if clear shaft on brown? .. or brown spring in clear?

[hking0036]

MX Browns really should all come standard with the MX clear shaft, IMO.  I have NO idea why Cherry hasn't done this.

Would switch pop back be a little sticky if clear shaft on brown? .. or brown spring in clear?

It tends to be, yes. Most people who do that go for a middle-of-the-road spring that still bounces back (62/65g usually).

[SpAmRaY]

Clears aren't really more tactile than browns are, you're probably better off with something else.

Are you sure... to me clears are so much more tactile than brown.

I was thinking the same thing.

[hking0036]

Clears aren't really more tactile than browns are, you're probably better off with something else.

Are you sure... to me clears are so much more tactile than brown.

I was thinking the same thing.

I'm fairly certain most people agree with this, or else the concept of ergo clears wouldn't really be a thing. Or zealios, for that matter.

[bluejeans]

I have all the major cherries except clear atm, tested them on Doom (the old one) and found I liked green the best.  However I more recently played call of duty and found green and black to be way too heavy.  Browns felt the best, like a "chunk" when pressing them even compared to my blue and green. 

[evilpacket]

browns suck pretty bad, although I'm typing on one right now... but it's modded with thick dental bands and they just feel like topre. It actually feels a lot better than stock browns because I don't want a switch that feels membrane-y and mechanical at the same time.

clears have a more clear actuation sound / feel so I'm sure you'll like it better than the brown for sure. the sound from the keycaps and the switches bottoming out provides a 'fresh' keyfeel, more than you would expect.

[alienman82]

removed.

[bluejeans]

Don't really want to make a new thread for this, a normally adept friend put a ps2 plug on my alps white board and blew it up, despite using his multimeter apparently.  Are the switches the same size as cherry and clones?  I have a glorious modular board I can put them in.

[need]

Don't really want to make a new thread for this, a normally adept friend put a ps2 plug on my alps white board and blew it up, despite using his multimeter apparently.  Are the switches the same size as cherry and clones?  I have a glorious modular board I can put them in.

Alps is different.

[bluejeans]

Don't really want to make a new thread for this, a normally adept friend put a ps2 plug on my alps white board and blew it up, despite using his multimeter apparently.  Are the switches the same size as cherry and clones?  I have a glorious modular board I can put them in.

Alps is different.

Damn.  How on earth does an ex-Samsung technician blow up his ps2 and usb ports, and a keyboard, when rewiring something while following instructions and using a multimeter?  The mind boggles.

[Hypersphere]

I wanted to like clears, but they have the steepest slope of any Cherry mx switch with respect to the force-displacement curve. My typing style is to bottom-out every keystroke, and with the steeply rising force between actuation and bottoming-out, I found clears tiring for long typing sessions. To me, greens were far less tiring, and I liked the extra heaviness of greens compared to blues or browns.

For me, the most pronounced tactility in any keyboard switch I have tried is found in SKCM brown Alps, but these also get tiring in long sessions. In the Alps world, it can be difficult to find switches in excellent condition, but generally I prefer the clicky/tactile ones -- SKCM white (pine) and SKCM blue.

My overall favorites for smooth tactility are IBM capacitive buckling spring (Model F) and Topre 45g. Topre is especially good if you want tactility without a click.

If you want to stay in the Cherry mx universe, many people seem to like ergo clears, but I have not tried them myself.

[evilpacket]

honestly clears need to be modded.
I rarely use them stock, just a spring switch will do.

[tp4tissue]

I originally ordered mx-clears for my first Ergodox..  then it was converted to ergo clear.. 

Felt fine for a while,

But once the novelty wore off..  and I began Objectively approaching the switches..  MX-Blue is clearly the superior switch. it has less friction than all other mx switches.. it has the smoothest travel because that center moving slider...

[evilpacket]

I originally ordered mx-clears for my first Ergodox..  then it was converted to ergo clear.. 

Felt fine for a while,

But once the novelty wore off..  and I began Objectively approaching the switches..  MX-Blue is clearly the superior switch. it has less friction than all other mx switches.. it has the smoothest travel because that center moving slider...

damn idk.. i gotta disagree with you on that one... its all personal preference but I hate mx blues. they're loud, annoying, tiring to the hand and the ears, and taking them apart will usually completely f*** up the original keyfeel irreversably. damn hard to lube properly and the spring noise is just bleh.

its all personal preference so I don't mean to be offensive in any way, but this is my 2 cents on that

and by the way, clears are non-clicky... just in case you were trying to compare whites with blues.

[chyros]

Clears aren't really more tactile than browns are, you're probably better off with something else.

Are you sure... to me clears are so much more tactile than brown.

Yes. The tactile bump is more smeared out, but is just as big as it is on MX brown.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

If you rotate the MX clear or brown graph to match the other (so that the lead-out portions of the graph co-incide) you get interesting results:

(Roughly drawn, as the image above was added to the wiki as a PNG (ugh) and I can't be bothered to accurately recreate it)

It's not simply a case of "smearing" — MX clear is progressive rate. I've always known this: the force definitely rises very sharply after actuation, but only after this exercise was I able to actually demonstrate this to myself.

This also demonstrates a greater tactile peak relative to the underlying y=mx+c plot, which is correct: clear feels far more tactile than brown.

(Topre's force curve is however "smeared" and that is also very clear from using it. I prefer the term "rolling".)

[tp4tissue]

I originally ordered mx-clears for my first Ergodox..  then it was converted to ergo clear.. 

Felt fine for a while,

But once the novelty wore off..  and I began Objectively approaching the switches..  MX-Blue is clearly the superior switch. it has less friction than all other mx switches.. it has the smoothest travel because that center moving slider...

damn idk.. i gotta disagree with you on that one... its all personal preference but I hate mx blues. they're loud, annoying, tiring to the hand and the ears, and taking them apart will usually completely f*** up the original keyfeel irreversably. damn hard to lube properly and the spring noise is just bleh.

its all personal preference so I don't mean to be offensive in any way, but this is my 2 cents on that

and by the way, clears are non-clicky... just in case you were trying to compare whites with blues.

ALL Mx-Switches come out to approximately the same loudness, because the highest noise is generated either on the bottom out OR the return stroke by the spring clicking the slider against the switch top.

The reason some people think blues are louder is simply because if you press a switch slowly to listen to it,  that is VERY different from actually typing on a keyboard..

As for your blues not feeling smooth, that depends, if they're very new, it's possible,  but given time it is a certainty that the Blues will feel smoother.

This is just a matter of physics, the center slider is very loose fitting, vs the much greater friction surface in the linear mx switches where the leaf is always in some contact with the slider..



As the blue switch travels,  the central slider slides across the moving white slider, barely any friction because of how loose these parts are fitted,   Then the highest friction point is the bump portion, where the slider is grinded across the leaf spring..

THEN after that slider gets out of the way, The bottom is Completely smooth again with no fricative resistance induced by the leaf spring..


So when we analyze the entire course of travel,  MX BLUE is in fact the smoothest of all MX switches.


In the Red Black Brown Clear,  all of these have Lateral forces pressed against the slider from top to bottom, therefore they MUST be more fricative..

[evilpacket]

I originally ordered mx-clears for my first Ergodox..  then it was converted to ergo clear.. 

Felt fine for a while,

But once the novelty wore off..  and I began Objectively approaching the switches..  MX-Blue is clearly the superior switch. it has less friction than all other mx switches.. it has the smoothest travel because that center moving slider...

damn idk.. i gotta disagree with you on that one... its all personal preference but I hate mx blues. they're loud, annoying, tiring to the hand and the ears, and taking them apart will usually completely f*** up the original keyfeel irreversably. damn hard to lube properly and the spring noise is just bleh.

its all personal preference so I don't mean to be offensive in any way, but this is my 2 cents on that

and by the way, clears are non-clicky... just in case you were trying to compare whites with blues.

ALL Mx-Switches come out to approximately the same loudness, because the highest noise is generated either on the bottom out OR the return stroke by the spring clicking the slider against the switch top.

The reason some people think blues are louder is simply because if you press a switch slowly to listen to it,  that is VERY different from actually typing on a keyboard..

As for your blues not feeling smooth, that depends, if they're very new, it's possible,  but given time it is a certainty that the Blues will feel smoother.

This is just a matter of physics, the center slider is very loose fitting, vs the much greater friction surface in the linear mx switches where the leaf is always in some contact with the slider..



As the blue switch travels,  the central slider slides across the moving white slider, barely any friction because of how loose these parts are fitted,   Then the highest friction point is the bump portion, where the slider is grinded across the leaf spring..

THEN after that slider gets out of the way, The bottom is Completely smooth again with no fricative resistance induced by the leaf spring..


So when we analyze the entire course of travel,  MX BLUE is in fact the smoothest of all MX switches.


In the Red Black Brown Clear,  all of these have Lateral forces pressed against the slider from top to bottom, therefore they MUST be more fricative..

I originally ordered mx-clears for my first Ergodox..  then it was converted to ergo clear.. 

Felt fine for a while,

But once the novelty wore off..  and I began Objectively approaching the switches..  MX-Blue is clearly the superior switch. it has less friction than all other mx switches.. it has the smoothest travel because that center moving slider...

damn idk.. i gotta disagree with you on that one... its all personal preference but I hate mx blues. they're loud, annoying, tiring to the hand and the ears, and taking them apart will usually completely f*** up the original keyfeel irreversably. damn hard to lube properly and the spring noise is just bleh.

its all personal preference so I don't mean to be offensive in any way, but this is my 2 cents on that

and by the way, clears are non-clicky... just in case you were trying to compare whites with blues.

ALL Mx-Switches come out to approximately the same loudness, because the highest noise is generated either on the bottom out OR the return stroke by the spring clicking the slider against the switch top.

The reason some people think blues are louder is simply because if you press a switch slowly to listen to it,  that is VERY different from actually typing on a keyboard..

As for your blues not feeling smooth, that depends, if they're very new, it's possible,  but given time it is a certainty that the Blues will feel smoother.

This is just a matter of physics, the center slider is very loose fitting, vs the much greater friction surface in the linear mx switches where the leaf is always in some contact with the slider..



As the blue switch travels,  the central slider slides across the moving white slider, barely any friction because of how loose these parts are fitted,   Then the highest friction point is the bump portion, where the slider is grinded across the leaf spring..

THEN after that slider gets out of the way, The bottom is Completely smooth again with no fricative resistance induced by the leaf spring..


So when we analyze the entire course of travel,  MX BLUE is in fact the smoothest of all MX switches.


In the Red Black Brown Clear,  all of these have Lateral forces pressed against the slider from top to bottom, therefore they MUST be more fricative..

Hm. I see.
but just like how the difference in loudness is only seen when the switch is pressed down very slowly, does the friction really feel any different when actually typing? cause I don't feel much of a difference and it really depends on the condition of the switch...

[tp4tissue]

Hm. I see.
but just like how the difference in loudness is only seen when the switch is pressed down very slowly, does the friction really feel any different when actually typing? cause I don't feel much of a difference and it really depends on the condition of the switch...

Nope.. hahaha..  NONE of it matters..

The switch simply doesn't matter..

What makes and breaks a keyboard is  Whether it IS an Ergodox,  or it Isn't..

ERGODOX can be tented, it's split, it's ergonomic..     Everything else is for facebookers..

[nevin]

...these are not the switches you are looking for... (...with jedi wave of hand)

it's all a matter of personal preference, try them, you'll at least have a 50% chance of liking them (or not)

[evilpacket]

Hm. I see.
but just like how the difference in loudness is only seen when the switch is pressed down very slowly, does the friction really feel any different when actually typing? cause I don't feel much of a difference and it really depends on the condition of the switch...

Nope.. hahaha..  NONE of it matters..

The switch simply doesn't matter..

What makes and breaks a keyboard is  Whether it IS an Ergodox,  or it Isn't..

ERGODOX can be tented, it's split, it's ergonomic..     Everything else is for facebookers..

Hm. I see.
but just like how the difference in loudness is only seen when the switch is pressed down very slowly, does the friction really feel any different when actually typing? cause I don't feel much of a difference and it really depends on the condition of the switch...

Nope.. hahaha..  NONE of it matters..

The switch simply doesn't matter..

What makes and breaks a keyboard is  Whether it IS an Ergodox,  or it Isn't..

ERGODOX can be tented, it's split, it's ergonomic..     Everything else is for facebookers..

woah. hardcore ergodoxian alert. 

[menuhin]

Clears aren't really more tactile than browns are, you're probably better off with something else.

Are you sure... to me clears are so much more tactile than brown.

Yes. The tactile bump is more smeared out, but is just as big as it is on MX brown.

Show Image

Are those real measured data? Or information in some source provided by Cherry?
Because the curve of MX Clear here looks much better than what I've remembered in some 'experiment'?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It's this: https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:CherryMXForceTravel.png

"Force-Travel diagram (Cn / mm) for the most common Cherry MX switches. Downstroke only. … Traced from Cherry's data sheets"

Measured:

https://plot.ly/~haata/86 — brown
https://plot.ly/~haata/80 — clear

Interestingly, measured, the tactile drop for clear is much steeper than brown, which is the opposite of the published graphs!

[menuhin]

Look at the graph of measured data from MX browns: that grain of sand that obstructs your key press after the stem has already travelled for almost 1mm.
This reassure me that MX browns are just shxt.

For the graph of MX clears measurement, it didn't get to 100 gf, not even passed 90 gf, unlike the published one that approaches 100 gf at 4mm travel.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Interesting, there's a pretty big discrepancy between the progressive rate force curve given in the March 1994 Keymodule MX brochure (the only MX clear graph I have) and the measured data from an unknown keyboard:




Oddly I'd say that, as I recall, it feels more like the published graph in terms of the way the force curve seems much steeper after actuation.

The measured curve is actually better: sharper feel and 10 cN or so lighter in the lead out!

[skuko]

i have it the other way around. i like browns more than ergo clears. weird.

[menuhin]

i have it the other way around. i like browns more than ergo clears. weird.

It's just personal preference after all.
Will it be the case that you have those darker colored vintage MX browns also? Some users say that those are better, don't know how much better or if that is true at all.

[alienman82]

removed.

[rowdy]

You can quote science and force curves all day, but ultimately each person will experience them differently.

Keyboard brand, case material, plate thickness and material, desk thickness and material, whether a desk mat is used or not, typing force, even room acoustics, all play a part in how a keyboard feels to an individual.

I got a CODE keyboard with MX clears, despite the pinging rumours, and I love it!  It seemed perhaps a little scratchy to start with, but after a good few months of use it seems to have settled down nicely.

[TheInverseKey]

I just switched from clears to a model m for typing but clears are not as tactile as you think after a period of time.

Personally I think that clears should be browns and that there should be an even higher weighted tactile mx switch.

[rowdy]

I just switched from clears to a model m for typing but clears are not as tactile as you think after a period of time.

Personally I think that clears should be browns and that there should be an even higher weighted tactile mx switch.

I switch between clears and BS at work on an irregular basis, partly because those are the two keyboards I have there and cbf carrying any more back and forth.

There's a huge difference between the boards, and I like both.  Probably prefer BS, but it doesn't have option keys (on a Mac), so sometimes I have to switch back to a more modern TKL layout on the CODE.

[Leslieann]

If you use them stock, Clear feel close to Blues and Greens in terms of the tactile bump (though in different places and ramp up.
However, if you use Jailhouse Blues to remove the click mechanism in Blues or Greens, you find that Blues and Greens actually have a better defined bump to them than clear, which kind of plays out in some of those charts with the Clear bump being a bit more spread out..

So, if you want tactile definition, yes Clears will have more bump/definition than Brown, but not as much as Blues or Greens. If you just want tons of definition and don't mind short stroke, Jailhouse Blues or Greens will give you the most tactile feel (without the click adding to it, or the noise).


Side note, Blues no not have the lowest friction, in fact Blues and Greens have more than the others because of the bump, which plays out if you start lubing and other things. Lower the spring pressure too much on Blues and they will start having problems with crispness and feel mushy. This happens around the 40-45gram mark, whereas on reds, I have heard rumors of people using 25-30gram springs without a problem (don't ask me where they got them). Even clears and browns were able to go lower on my testing.