Author Topic: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned  (Read 5058 times)

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Offline dantan

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The lesson is never to be too self effacing or polite when dealing with Geekhack people.

I bought a hand wired keyboard from AlexatPanc. He promised to help me program it after I bought.

It came to me smashed and DOA. No computer could detect it, no response from teensy.

Alex denied sending me a smashed keyboard, so I accepted his claim because he’d been previously quite nice. It’s easier to blame the shippers than to blame fellow geekhack members.

Subsequently I could not get the keyboard to work. I have done teensy programming on Model M and Fs before, so I did have some knowledge. Anyway, I thought it was my incompetence that was to blame.

I contacted Alex for help and he just brushed me off with a pile of links. I still couldn't do anything with the board. Then I tried but couldn’t get hold of him. Got desperate, used paypal to contact him. I didn’t want to be too accusatory, so I didn’t mention the damage and used words like ‘I bought rashly’ instead of ‘it doesn’t work’. I thought if I was more polite Alex might help me with the programming. Also, note that this wasn’t a complaint, it was a message sent through paypal.

I was away for several days because of work. Alex quickly escalated this dispute to a complaint in my absence. He sent me an email arrogantly smirking that he would win because of things I’d said in the past such as ‘I bought rashly’. He also claimed it was properly programmed right from the start – which was the dead ringer for me, because it certainly didn’t come to me functioning.

Alex won, so now I’m stuck with a smashed keyboard that never worked to begin with.

Finally learned after reading various community posts. If you have a problem with any purchase, should just file complaint immediately and say it is dead or internally damaged. If I filed complaint I could submit photos and the complaint would be decided on the basis of photos, whereas if seller was the one who filed complaint seller can just say whatever he wants and the complaint would be decided on the basis of that.

Lastly I note that Alex's confident response on paypal suggests he has experience with winning complaints. I, on the other hand, am inexperienced at filing complaints.  Must beware of a seller like that.

Offline dantan

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 17 July 2017, 12:56:55 »
If anyone wants a damaged metal hand wired keyboard to experiment with, can just make me an offer! Casing is all stainless steel. No promises whether teensy is usable, of course.

Offline HPE1000

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 17 July 2017, 13:09:50 »
This person has 49 posts, as far as im concerned, that means they have no reputation on geekhack. If you want to make safe purchases on geekhack, or any forum, you should do so with established members who have something to lose.

That said,

When you say the keyboard was smashed was there physical damage present on the board that could be photographed? And did you purchase the keyboard with paypal goods or gift? Paypal and ebay pretty much always side with the buyer if any problems occur during a transaction.

I would contact paypal again and send them pictures of damage and explain everything. I am not understanding how HE (the seller) could open a complaint (that you should have opened) and that they would just side with him without hearing your side. If that is truly the case, i'm sure you could send them pictures of the damage/explain the situation and even send them any correspondence related to the transaction you had.

Offline romevi

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 17 July 2017, 13:14:46 »
Nice clickbait title.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 17 July 2017, 13:33:55 »
Hahahaha..

Dantan.  a user with 59 posts is not "representative of geekhack"




There are bad guys everywhere..   it's merely Bad luck that you met one here....



Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 17 July 2017, 13:36:52 »
That isn't to say,   a HIGH post count user can't be --The bad guy--..


For example a while back, --User--  | dorkvader |   was reported for having ripped off a bunch of other users.

---Although--- I suspect that was unintentional and dorkvader is merely -incompetent-, rather than a true Criminal.

Offline AlexAtPanc

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 17 July 2017, 22:03:21 »
Here are messages that this user sent to me, unprompted, about the state of the board after customs in his country inspected the package:



And here is his most recent message before he opened a dispute against me:



And here is the full string of the emails we have exchanged since he started the dispute which sent my Paypal account into the negative:

Quote
----------------------------------------------------

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Alex Jackson <alex@panc.co> wrote:
I'm copying my message from Geekhack to personal email for record-keeping:

Dantan,

I just came to Geekhack to check our previous interactions, and saw this message. Geekhack email notifications go to their own folder since they are mostly spam, and I rarely read them. I don't often check my messages on here since I primarily use reddit, and I don't have any active sales on Geekhack right now. Before you raised a PayPal dispute, you could have directly emailed me, since you have that from my PayPal account.

It's doubly strange, because your message here, in particular your comment:

Quote
"I'm at a loss, I have too much on my plate to properly study programming. Am afraid I bought rashly."

Is going to serve to eliminate the PayPal dispute and you won't receive any refund. It's certainly unfortunate that you aren't able to follow the TMK instructions, but the board is already programmed, and the fact that you "bought rashly" is not something over which I have control. If you want to change the way the keys operate, then learning TMK is essential. Nothing about how I represented the keyboard is not as described. I noted it was hand-wired with TMK.

Now that is out of the way, your main inquiry is "I can't follow the TMK instructions, is there a text tile that I can edit". The answer is, yes, there is. You need to follow the TMK instructions to understand which text files to edit, and what to substitute. As a shortcut, I can tell you that the file you want to edit is keymap_campine.c file. There are several resources when learning TMK, and I am not in a position to provide tutoring. Below is link to my own site, walking you through the broader points of TMK:

http://www.panc.co/blog/minorcasebright-information-page

Again, this is not a substitute for actually learning about it. The item is not damaged, I did not falsify information, and I made it explicitly clear that the keyboard was hand-wired and was flashed with TMK. Please remove the dispute from my account.

If you have any additional questions or concerns please let me know.

Alex

-----------------------------------------------------

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 8:00 PM, Alex Jackson <alex@panc.co> wrote:
Dantan,

I am making you aware that unless you remove the dispute within 4 hours from the transmission of this email, I am going to escalate this issue to PayPal and forward all communication you have already sent me regarding this issue, including your admission that you "bought rashly", which will no doubt remove the dispute and on it's own.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.


Alex Jackson
Panc Interactive

----------------------------------------------------

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:19 PM, BL Cheah <bucangelyn@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex Jackson

I made a terrible mistake. But it was not because I bought rashly. It was because I was too polite.

Your keyboard CANNOT be detected by any windows computer I own. No response. I thought it was because I didn't know how to program it, but only after you said it was programmed already, that I realized it was DOA all along.

I should just have told paypal it was DOA. Instead, I blamed myself for not understanding how to program it. I thought I had to flash teensy before I could use it.

It came to me damaged anyway. I should have filed complaint immediately instead of accepting your claim that it was done by a reshipper. In any case, metal casing should have protected the teensy - unless the teensy was messed up in the first place which now I know it was.

I wasn't trying to file complaint against you, just communicate with you. You were the one who escalated, and now I see why you escalated - because you knew you would win.

Well done, using paypal's system! You clearly know it better than me. Wonder how many complaints have been filed against you in the past.

-----------------------------------------------------

I'm not going to take more than 5 minutes to respond, because you have already caused me to lose far too much productive time.

Working backward:

I know the paypal system supports factual statements. You yourself said you bought rashly. It is more than likely they saw that, realized you were either mistaken of being untruthful, and sided with me, as they should have.

I responded to every message you sent me, save two. Those GH notifications went to spam in gmail. You had my personal email which clearly would have been the best option to contact me.

I don't sell damaged products. We agreed that was done by the shipper custom agency, as your comments referenced. It's steel; I would have to take a hammer to it to dent it like that. Clearly whomever was checking customs was not handling it with the appropriate level of care.

If it did not and is not being recognized when you plugged/plug it in, that should have been the first thing of which you informed me. Why you'd dither around with any other information makes zero sense. The absolute first thing one would note when they receive an item is to ensure that it does in fact function.

If you want help to try to identify the issue, provide valid factual information regarding the behavior of the board, pictures of the wiring on the teensy and any keys that are not registering.


Alex Jackson
Panc Interactive

The main reason the user brought a dispute against me, I believe, hinges on the fact that this user has stated that I pledged to assist in programming the board. I did not. I provided the standard links and documentation that I provide to users with questions about flashing TMK. I have designed and produced a line of 40% boards that can only be hand-wired as a PCB for them does not exist. I have compiled resources for hand-wiring, and have seen many, many successes by people following the resources that exist, in the wild, that are freely searchable on both Geekhack and Reddit. As can be seen at the end of my most recent (and admittedly terse) email to this user, I am still willing to provide assistance. 

It's quite unfortunate this user is attempting to paint this situation as me trying to pull a fast one on him, as if he was minding his own business walking to the corner store, and I accosted him with an offer he could not refuse. The user has put in black-and-white (or red and black) exactly what happened to the board and the reason why he couldn't get it to operate. Any additional communication to Paypal would most likely fall on deaf ears, since he has already confirmed that the damage was from customs inspection.

I hope that, in the future, this user realizes that the people on the other end of the PMs he sends are in fact real people, and will have zero tolerance for being extorted into a refund. And, for the record, I am still willing to provide assistance granted it's legitimate and the above requests regarding detailed trouble-shooting info are answered.
« Last Edit: Mon, 17 July 2017, 22:09:18 by AlexAtPanc »

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 17 July 2017, 22:19:30 »
Yep, always two sides.

And seriously who brings this up in July when the deal went down in April.

I'm not taking sides here but come on dantan, this isn't your first rant thread about being unhappy with something you bought.

Kudos to Alex for being levelheaded and those are some cool keyboards to. Do any of the TMK configurators work for them? Or maybe not since it is handwired?

Offline nmur

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 17 July 2017, 22:36:43 »
i do love threads like these, where the OP comes in with a name and shame, and then the accused comes in and clears everything up with a transparent (actual message logs) and reasonable side to the story

it is a shame that alex had to waste his time time defending himself though

Offline Lanx

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 18:40:37 »
The lesson is never to be too self effacing or polite when dealing with Geekhack people.

I bought a hand wired keyboard from AlexatPanc. He promised to help me program it after I bought.

It came to me smashed and DOA. No computer could detect it, no response from teensy.

Alex denied sending me a smashed keyboard, so I accepted his claim because he’d been previously quite nice. It’s easier to blame the shippers than to blame fellow geekhack members.

Subsequently I could not get the keyboard to work. I have done teensy programming on Model M and Fs before, so I did have some knowledge. Anyway, I thought it was my incompetence that was to blame.

I contacted Alex for help and he just brushed me off with a pile of links. I still couldn't do anything with the board. Then I tried but couldn’t get hold of him. Got desperate, used paypal to contact him. I didn’t want to be too accusatory, so I didn’t mention the damage and used words like ‘I bought rashly’ instead of ‘it doesn’t work’. I thought if I was more polite Alex might help me with the programming. Also, note that this wasn’t a complaint, it was a message sent through paypal.

I was away for several days because of work. Alex quickly escalated this dispute to a complaint in my absence. He sent me an email arrogantly smirking that he would win because of things I’d said in the past such as ‘I bought rashly’. He also claimed it was properly programmed right from the start – which was the dead ringer for me, because it certainly didn’t come to me functioning.

Alex won, so now I’m stuck with a smashed keyboard that never worked to begin with.

Finally learned after reading various community posts. If you have a problem with any purchase, should just file complaint immediately and say it is dead or internally damaged. If I filed complaint I could submit photos and the complaint would be decided on the basis of photos, whereas if seller was the one who filed complaint seller can just say whatever he wants and the complaint would be decided on the basis of that.

Lastly I note that Alex's confident response on paypal suggests he has experience with winning complaints. I, on the other hand, am inexperienced at filing complaints.  Must beware of a seller like that.

you trusted someone w/ 49 posts... that's pretty much Darwinian for saying good bye to your $$$

Offline AlexAtPanc

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 19:26:28 »
The lesson is never to be too self effacing or polite when dealing with Geekhack people.

I bought a hand wired keyboard from AlexatPanc. He promised to help me program it after I bought.

It came to me smashed and DOA. No computer could detect it, no response from teensy.

Alex denied sending me a smashed keyboard, so I accepted his claim because he’d been previously quite nice. It’s easier to blame the shippers than to blame fellow geekhack members.

Subsequently I could not get the keyboard to work. I have done teensy programming on Model M and Fs before, so I did have some knowledge. Anyway, I thought it was my incompetence that was to blame.

I contacted Alex for help and he just brushed me off with a pile of links. I still couldn't do anything with the board. Then I tried but couldn’t get hold of him. Got desperate, used paypal to contact him. I didn’t want to be too accusatory, so I didn’t mention the damage and used words like ‘I bought rashly’ instead of ‘it doesn’t work’. I thought if I was more polite Alex might help me with the programming. Also, note that this wasn’t a complaint, it was a message sent through paypal.

I was away for several days because of work. Alex quickly escalated this dispute to a complaint in my absence. He sent me an email arrogantly smirking that he would win because of things I’d said in the past such as ‘I bought rashly’. He also claimed it was properly programmed right from the start – which was the dead ringer for me, because it certainly didn’t come to me functioning.

Alex won, so now I’m stuck with a smashed keyboard that never worked to begin with.

Finally learned after reading various community posts. If you have a problem with any purchase, should just file complaint immediately and say it is dead or internally damaged. If I filed complaint I could submit photos and the complaint would be decided on the basis of photos, whereas if seller was the one who filed complaint seller can just say whatever he wants and the complaint would be decided on the basis of that.

Lastly I note that Alex's confident response on paypal suggests he has experience with winning complaints. I, on the other hand, am inexperienced at filing complaints.  Must beware of a seller like that.

you trusted someone w/ 49 posts... that's pretty much Darwinian for saying good bye to your $$$

Don't blame you for TL;DRing the post, but if you read through completely you'll see my response, which I would hope underlines the fact that buying something from me IS NOT throwing your money away. I've sold hundreds of these and other mech parts, and I always do my level best to make sure that every customer is satisfied, every time.

Offline AlexAtPanc

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 19:28:40 »
Yep, always two sides.

And seriously who brings this up in July when the deal went down in April.

I'm not taking sides here but come on dantan, this isn't your first rant thread about being unhappy with something you bought.

Kudos to Alex for being levelheaded and those are some cool keyboards to. Do any of the TMK configurators work for them? Or maybe not since it is handwired?

The Van Man has graciously added the Minorca to his configurator found here:

http://minivan.config.thevankeyboards.com/

You can input your wiring scheme and it will do more of the tedious coding for you. I have a Minorca PCB coming in the next few weeks, if you're interested in one!

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 20:46:22 »

Don't blame you for TL;DRing the post, but if you read through completely you'll see my response, which I would hope underlines the fact that buying something from me IS NOT throwing your money away. I've sold hundreds of these and other mech parts, and I always do my level best to make sure that every customer is satisfied, every time.


Alex, We do not have proof one way or the other.

Your post only indicate that  there MAY HAVE been a shipping error.

---  Nothing proves you didn't take a hammer to the keyboard,    or that you didn't intentionally sell a dud pcb.



Once you've been called out,  you're on the defense,    it's a hassle,  but  do you have any other geekhackers you've sold to that can screen shot some purchases and vouch for you ?



Otherwise,    it's your word against his..     



Neither of you have any credibility on GH at the moment.

Offline Photekq

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 21:02:42 »
@op ur a dumb-ass lol
https://kbdarchive.org/
github
discord: hi mum#5710

Offline AlexAtPanc

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 22:14:06 »
I'm not comfortable attempting to rally individuals to my cause here, mostly because the facts don't really necessitate it. However, I wasn't being hyperbolic when I said I have sold hundreds of these parts; I have. I've run several completed GBs in the past, with this one having just wrapped up. The most recent featured a custom PCB designed by another GH/RMK member. I don't do much posting over here on GH, but my Reddit account is active and I am always communicative with my buyers. I provide my personal email address to GB participants and always respond within 24 hours, if not more quickly.

I started on this ridiculous journey when I wanted to dip my toe into CAD design and manufacture, and financed the production of 40% boards of my own creation. I stood on the shoulders of a lot of geniuses around here, learning about hand-wiring, switchplate design and production, and PCB development. I'm going to be running a GB for milled 60% cases in both standard and HHKB flavors in the coming weeks, after which a GB will start for a PCB version of my 40% Minorca keyboard.

I have over 50 confirmed trades on Reddit on top of all the sales from my past GBs. My Minorca keyboard has itself sold close to 100 kits through the Switchtop.com store before all parts were completely sold out. Feel free to peruse my Reddit account to get a bit more background on what I'm all about. I've donated to several meetups and displayed my boards at Keycon this year.

If the above is not enough to convince anyone clicking through that I have enough interest in maintaining a positive reputation by engaging in solid business practices, I don't know what is :) . Panc Interactive is neither some Mickey Mouse operation nor some fly-by-night clip joint. I will also take the opportunity to note that OP volunteered that it was a customs inspection issue. No one twisted his arm to provide that info. Why lie and be "self-effacing" and confirm the damage was done by a third party? If you received a damaged board, and it didn't work when you plugged it in, that should be the end of your evaluation. That information should be communicated to the seller to initiate a return and refund. Had it been, in this instance, I would have accepted the return and refunded the purchase price after receiving the board back from OP.

So, to answer your question, there are quite a few people who have bought from me. I sincerely hope that they are all enjoying their purchases and are clacking in good health. I believe I provide a quality product for a fair price. If any were ever unsatisfied and brought their concerns to me in a forthright and honest manner, I made sure we came to a resolution to which we both agreed. That's how I've always conducted business, and I don't plan on deviating from that in the future.
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 July 2017, 21:19:32 by AlexAtPanc »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 22:20:22 »

............




Hey man, I understand your frustration,   but without any long term accounts FROM GEEKHACK to vouch for you..  It's your words against Dantan's..


Both of you are strangers here @ geekhack..


Reddit is reddit..  we don't know those people,  we can't use them as character witness..


Offline switchnollie

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 22:31:38 »
dealing with Geekhack people.

y u gotta bring race into this


Keyboards: HHKB Pro 1 & OTD 356CL Dark Greyhat Edition, baybee!

Offline Halverson

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 22:59:38 »

............




Hey man, I understand your frustration,   but without any long term accounts FROM GEEKHACK to vouch for you..  It's your words against Dantan's..


Both of you are strangers here @ geekhack..


Reddit is reddit..  we don't know those people,  we can't use them as character witness..


All rise for judge TP

Offline nmur

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 23:03:41 »

............




Hey man, I understand your frustration,   but without any long term accounts FROM GEEKHACK to vouch for you..  It's your words against Dantan's..


Both of you are strangers here @ geekhack..


Reddit is reddit..  we don't know those people,  we can't use them as character witness..

a lot of us here also dabble in reddit affairs as well, specifically /r/mechmarket (myself included). i'm sure that some of those 50+ people, as well as some of his GB participants were also GH members. reddit users are people too, so those confirmed trades do mean something, in the same way as heatware reviews mean something

even without the proof from GH members directly, it's pretty safe to say based on the attitudes, the mannerisms, and the history of both of these people, that Alex is more likely to be the better dude here

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 23:11:28 »

............




Hey man, I understand your frustration,   but without any long term accounts FROM GEEKHACK to vouch for you..  It's your words against Dantan's..


Both of you are strangers here @ geekhack..


Reddit is reddit..  we don't know those people,  we can't use them as character witness..

a lot of us here also dabble in reddit affairs as well, specifically /r/mechmarket (myself included). i'm sure that some of those 50+ people, as well as some of his GB participants were also GH members. reddit users are people too, so those confirmed trades do mean something, in the same way as heatware reviews mean something

even without the proof from GH members directly, it's pretty safe to say based on the attitudes, the mannerisms, and the history of both of these people, that Alex is more likely to be the better dude here


SPECULATION...



Some geekhackers are on reddit.. ok..


Then those geekhack/redditors who have traded/purchased from AlexAtPanc    need to speak up..




Don't fight the process please..    hahahaha..


Let's us keep the mob-mentality out of it this time.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 23:14:05 »
@ nmur,  you're certainly entitled to your opinion of dantan,   I myself have reason to believe dantan may not be a straight shooter.


But he could not be condemned  based on our biases..

Offline nmur

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 23:17:57 »
@ nmur,  you're certainly entitled to your opinion of dantan,   I myself have reason to believe dantan may not be a straight shooter.


But he could not be condemned  based on our biases..

true

you'd definitely make a finer juror than i

i guess i just don't like seeing these sorts of squabbles being drawn out too long

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 23:21:41 »
@ nmur,  you're certainly entitled to your opinion of dantan,   I myself have reason to believe dantan may not be a straight shooter.


But he could not be condemned  based on our biases..

true

you'd definitely make a finer juror than i

i guess i just don't like seeing these sorts of squabbles being drawn out too long


However long it drags out..   Tp4, Public Defender will be there , rain, snow , or sleet,    Doesn't matter, because Tp4 never goes outside and owns over 30 computers.

Offline theteam

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 18 July 2017, 23:46:07 »
and here i am waiting for a picture of the said smashed keyboard

Offline AlexAtPanc

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 27 July 2017, 22:59:13 »
for anyone interested, here's the link to an IC for the 60% cases:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=90766.0

Offline hapakey

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Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 28 July 2017, 09:20:26 »
174437-0


Offline digi

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  • * Exquisite Elder
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  • keyboard game on fleek
Re: Sharing my terrible experience on geekhack and the lesson I learned
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 28 July 2017, 11:24:18 »
Lesson learned, never buy a hand wired keyboard.