The Switch Race

[Kavik]

When I first got into mechanical keyboards, I only knew of Cherry MX switches, and, of those, only the popular four: blues, reds, blacks, and browns. A few years later, I found out about Buckling Springs. Then I found out about Matias, Alps switches, and all the other variants of Cherries.

Then the Cherry MX clones started hitting, mostly exact copies of the Cherries with nuanced differences. Then it seemed as though Zealios were the big popular thing, and then MOD switches tried to compete with Zealios. Now there seems to be a never ending deluge of Kailh variants and even BOX variants now.

How can anyone possibly keep up with these?! I JUST got around to a Zealios build a couple months ago. If you plan a build and purchase parts ahead of time (or just when they're actually available), your fancy switches are out of date by the time your custom keyboard ships.

It's nice to have options and improvements, but the arms race on switches seems to be so fast lately that it confuses the market (or maybe just me?!?) since comparisons can't really be made by the individual.

Thoughts? Am I alone in thinking this?

That said, I just learnt of the sold out Kailh Box Navy switches, and I want some

[SamirD]

I too have noticed the switch race speeding up--and the number of mech boards available increasing daily and prices dropping steadily. 

If I was building my own, I'd definitely make it so I could swap switches--that would be a really good investment. 

[SpAmRaY]

The crazy part is most of these newest cherry mx compatible switches are so new there's no long term data to know how they'll last, assuming someone actually uses their keyboard for any length of time.

Then there's so much more to consider besides switches, keycaps (material, printing method), board build quality (case and plate material), layout, etc.

Personally I've settled on silent reds at work and 45g topre at home both on Leopold 980 boards.

I think you get to a point where you decide to try everything or you decide you're done trying things at least for a while.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Kavik]

I think I am going to look into holtites. My understanding is that some PCBs don't support them because the tolerance is so small for fitting them or not. That said, I saw an update in the Matias 60% GB thread that Matias is testing hot-swappable switches wherein the pins have coil springs on them that make contact with the PCB pads in lieu of solder. I wonder if that idea could be adapted to Cherry style switches as an aftermarket add-on (it wasn't clear whether they have to be added during manufacturing or afterwards). I think the issue with that would be loosely fitting switches and wobble.

There are indeed many variables besides the switches, which makes apples to apples comparisons even more difficult. I think I am mostly beyond the point of wanting to try everything (It is prohibitively expensive to do so anyway); I simply want to make sure my super expensive custom builds are what I really want so that I don't have to mess with them again later.

I definitely agree that there's no historical data for reliability on these new switches (which is one of the supposed advantages of mechs). Luckily, I've only had two cases of having to replaces switches that were chattering (one Cherry MX Blue and one Matias Click).

[MKULTRA]

The crazy part is most of these newest cherry mx compatible switches are so new there's no long term data to know how they'll last, assuming someone actually uses their keyboard for any length of time.

Then there's so much more to consider besides switches, keycaps (material, printing method), board build quality (case and plate material), layout, etc.

Personally I've settled on silent reds at work and 45g topre at home both on Leopold 980 boards.

I think you get to a point where you decide to try everything or you decide you're done trying things at least for a while.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

This is why I stick to Cherry switches. They are tried and true.

[zslane]

This is why I stick to TMX switches. They are the only ones that give me the Topre feel I want along with the ability to take my MX keycap sets.

[Puddsy]

i still use cherry almost exclusively

[davkol]

Conceptually, there aren't all that many switches, and those more interesting are extremely rare.

Take MX/clones, for example… what's out there? Linear switches are simply linear with different springs and amount of smoothness/wobble, that's it. Well, that and optional damping, alright. Then you have clicky MX switches, those are all the same again, except for spring rate and clones may be a tad bit louder/crisper. You can jailhouse them. Then Kailh clickbar. And finally, non-clicky tactile switches: they're all somewhere between MX Brown and MX Clear, with different spring rates and a slightly different bump on the stem.

Basically, you can get a pretty good idea about nearly everything in the market by testing a linear, a couple of clicky and a couple of non-clicky tactile switches, and swapping springs around.

On the other hand, if you get into early Alps SKCM/SKCL, it becomes tricky really fast. Something like SKCM Blue or worse SKCL Brown in good condition is uncommon and quite expensive.

Or _other_ uncommon vintage switches.

But then you're limited by keycaps and keyboards themselves too.

[WhateverZYX]

As far as I see it, the prefered switch is always a very subjective opinion. The best tactile switch for me is still an Ergo Clear. Some people might prefer the long, drawn out tactile bump of Topre or switches that try to imitate those, however, I do not. I want a sharper, more compact bump and I want the spring resistance to increase after bottoming out (which excludes pretty much any tactile Alps switch). The Kailh Box switches just feel weird to me when bottoming out, and don't take too well to lube. Zealios are quite nice but the springs for the 67g edition were, at least in previous generations, completely unbearable.

Basically, if you have formed a certain preference for switches and are capable of interpreting force graphs, you will be able to tell if any of those new switches actually are something for you. In this community, every review you ever read about switches is subjective and reviewers seldom try to actually put their impressions into perspective.

After trying many new switches, in my opinion not much has really changed: Blue or Amber Alps are still the best clicky switches, Ergo Clears are still the best tactiles and, surprisingly, Tealios are the best linears for me (next to Vintage Blacks in marvelous condition).

[Zobeid Zuma]

When it comes to Cherry MX clones, most of them are, well…  clones.  They're not identical, but subtle differences are subtle.  I can have a bunch of "blue" switches from different brands side-by-side on a tester and make an informed choice, but if you sat me down in front of a keyboard made from an unknown brand of "blue" switch and asked me to identify them, I'd only be guessing.

It's nice to have options and improvements, but the arms race on switches seems to be so fast lately that it confuses the market (or maybe just me?!?) since comparisons can't really be made by the individual.

Get some testers with sample switches!  Do it, do it, do it!  No, they won't feel-or-sound the same as having a whole keyboard built, but that doesn't mean testers are useless.  They can give you a general idea of the characteristics of a switch and how it compares with others.  A lot of this confusion that you feel will quickly melt away.

My testers convinced me that Kaihua/Kailh are running a hot streak.  Now I'm using my most recently built keyboard with BOX Pale Blue switches, and they are very close to typing perfection for me.  I prefer it over my vintage IBM XT keyboard, even.  (And yeah, I do have some BOX Navy switches ordered.)

[ander]

When I first got into mechanical keyboards, I only knew of Cherry MX switches, and, of those, only the popular four: blues, reds, blacks, and browns. A few years later, I found out about Buckling Springs. Then I found out about Matias, Alps switches, and all the other variants of Cherries.

Then the Cherry MX clones started hitting, mostly exact copies of the Cherries with nuanced differences. Then it seemed as though Zealios were the big popular thing, and then MOD switches tried to compete with Zealios. Now there seems to be a never ending deluge of Kailh variants and even BOX variants now.

How can anyone possibly keep up with these?! I JUST got around to a Zealios build a couple months ago. If you plan a build and purchase parts ahead of time (or just when they're actually available), your fancy switches are out of date by the time your custom keyboard ships.

It's nice to have options and improvements, but the arms race on switches seems to be so fast lately that it confuses the market (or maybe just me?!?) since comparisons can't really be made by the individual...

Yes, it almost seems like an obsession, doesn't it? An obsession with small, precise, multi-colored objects that sound and feel different when you press them... And you can take them apart and examine all the little parts inside them, and measure them and photograph them and document them... Then you can put them back in the keyboard and they're all arranged in perfect, tidy little rows... Must... have... more... switches... [rocking back and forth, groaning]

 

[katushkin]

The best thing I found was to go to a meetup. Everyone has different tastes and rather than buying a board with every single switch type you want to try, or trying to work out if you like a switch form one key on a switch tester, if you go to a meet then you will be able to type on potentially hundreds of different boards with different keycaps, switch types, cases, mods, everything! No two boards are the same (after a certain point) and you'll waste a lot of money buying loads of switches you wont like

[JohanAR]

Take MX/clones, for example… what's out there? Linear switches are simply linear with different springs and amount of smoothness/wobble, that's it. Well, that and optional damping, alright. Then you have clicky MX switches, those are all the same again, except for spring rate and clones may be a tad bit louder/crisper. You can jailhouse them. Then Kailh clickbar. And finally, non-clicky tactile switches: they're all somewhere between MX Brown and MX Clear, with different spring rates and a slightly different bump on the stem.

Don't forget the "speed" variant of all these

[davkol]

Take MX/clones, for example… what's out there? Linear switches are simply linear with different springs and amount of smoothness/wobble, that's it. Well, that and optional damping, alright. Then you have clicky MX switches, those are all the same again, except for spring rate and clones may be a tad bit louder/crisper. You can jailhouse them. Then Kailh clickbar. And finally, non-clicky tactile switches: they're all somewhere between MX Brown and MX Clear, with different spring rates and a slightly different bump on the stem.

Don't forget the "speed" variant of all these

Umm, what about no?

A "speed" linear switch is still a linear switch and the only major difference in the tactile/clicky switches is how the feedback is aligned with actuation, which can be tested only in a working keyboard, not a circuit-less tester.

Well, Kailh Speed Copper _is_ somewhat different… in the end, it feels like a crossover between browns and jailhouse blues though.

[SamirD]

I think you get to a point where you decide to try everything or you decide you're done trying things at least for a while.

Well said--and I think most of us float in between indefinitely. 

[SamirD]

The best thing I found was to go to a meetup. Everyone has different tastes and rather than buying a board with every single switch type you want to try, or trying to work out if you like a switch form one key on a switch tester, if you go to a meet then you will be able to type on potentially hundreds of different boards with different keycaps, switch types, cases, mods, everything! No two boards are the same (after a certain point) and you'll waste a lot of money buying loads of switches you wont like

I agree that this is the best way--plus you get to meet some awesome people at the same time.   

I haven't had a chance to go to a meet myself, but look forward to the next chance with earnest. 

[OfTheWild]

Competition is good for progress. The quality of switches has been increased significantly in the last 2-3 years. I feel like the variety and innovation has been exciting to watch. And since the majority of these parts are interchangeable, the combinations of switch parts for a 'personal custom' has gotten a little out of hand. But the fact remains that its fun and it keeps these companies that are paying attention supplied with ideas for a new switch options.

I'm kind of curious what Greetech has been up to the last 2 years. I wonder if they're going to release anything worth looking at.

[SamirD]

Competition is good for progress. The quality of switches has been increased significantly in the last 2-3 years. I feel like the variety and innovation has been exciting to watch. And since the majority of these parts are interchangeable, the combinations of switch parts for a 'personal custom' has gotten a little out of hand. But the fact remains that its fun and it keeps these companies that are paying attention supplied with ideas for a new switch options.

I agree.  Initially when I joined GH, there were just a handful of custom combinations.  Now, I think it would be just interesting to see how many mathematical combinations are possible and see if there is a switch type for every person on the planet yet or not. 

[SamirD]

I just saw OfTheWild's Doorbell build--AMAZING!  I'd so buy one of those for my house so long as the switch could survive the elements. 

[tp4tissue]

There is no race..

Everyone is trying to capitalize on the flavor craze.

No one has meaningfully improved switches except logitech..

Everyone else has simply named their slight variation like weed dealers with a new (alleged) variety every week...

[OfTheWild]

I just saw OfTheWild's Doorbell build--AMAZING!  I'd so buy one of those for my house so long as the switch could survive the elements. 

So far its been great! I just swapped on a nice festive green/purple cap for the holidays. The only thing im planning for is changing the gat green out for a kailh box white since they are sealed to the elements it should last longer outside in the damp NC summer.

There is no race..

Everyone is trying to capitalize on the flavor craze.

No one has meaningfully improved switches except logitech..

Everyone else has simply named their slight variation like weed dealers with a new (alleged) variety every week...

Actually theres been quite a lot i think!
Kailh is definitely at the forefront with the sealed box switch and the click-bar switches. Cherry silent switches are also innovative. 

[tp4tissue]

Actually theres been quite a lot i think!
Kailh is definitely at the forefront with the sealed box switch and the click-bar switches. Cherry silent switches are also innovative. 

If that's ur idea of innovate.. hahahaha.. well... ok u win.. much new, many invent.

[davkol]

What's innovative about Cherry MX Silent compared to Alps SKCM Damped Cream from the 1990s?

[OfTheWild]

What's innovative about Cherry MX Silent compared to Alps SKCM Damped Cream from the 1990s?

same concept, different switch and outcome. I see what you're saying and I'm sure theres a far fetched analogy but i will just say that prior to the Box (which is actually a different mechanism) and the Silent and Speed switches... there had been to the best of my knowledge, no changes to the cherry MX switch in over 35 years.. 

So yeah, the last 16 months have been pretty progressive in terms of mechanical keyboard switches.

[davkol]

No changes to Cherry MX in 35 years? Cherry changed some materials and sliders in the 1990s (for example, springs were a different alloy steel or MX Brown is from '92 or so); MX Red is even newer, if a spring swap can be considered an innovation.

The Box switch sealing or clickbar could be innovative, but I'm not even sure about that tbh.

[SamirD]

So far its been great! I just swapped on a nice festive green/purple cap for the holidays. The only thing im planning for is changing the gat green out for a kailh box white since they are sealed to the elements it should last longer outside in the damp NC summer.

That's awesome!  I didn't even think about the fact you can swap keycaps for seasons or whatnot.  I guess even artisans could be used.

[SamirD]

What's innovative about Cherry MX Silent compared to Alps SKCM Damped Cream from the 1990s?

same concept, different switch and outcome. I see what you're saying and I'm sure theres a far fetched analogy but i will just say that prior to the Box (which is actually a different mechanism) and the Silent and Speed switches... there had been to the best of my knowledge, no changes to the cherry MX switch in over 35 years.. 

So yeah, the last 16 months have been pretty progressive in terms of mechanical keyboard switches.

I'm with you on this.  It's like saying nothing really new has happened with cars until Tesla when there have been small tweaks and changes that have brought gasoline cars to where they are today.

[Kavik]

TP4 hit on the way that I feel sometimes. Sometimes, I feel as if the new variations are just the switch du jour, and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon. Other times, I am genuinely curious or wondering if I am just falling behind.

As far as innovations in the technology itself, there are Romer-G, XMIT's Hall Effect switches (although not really new tech), optical switches, and analog switches. They step beyond simply changing the feel, but they seem to be even more niche and less available or proprietary.

[OfTheWild]

No changes to Cherry MX in 35 years? Cherry changed some materials and sliders in the 1990s (for example, springs were a different alloy steel or MX Brown is from '92 or so); MX Red is even newer, if a spring swap can be considered an innovation.

The Box switch sealing or clickbar could be innovative, but I'm not even sure about that tbh.

I know you know what i'm saying. The design and function of the cherry mx switch is the same until recently. Changing the materials or the color of it doesnt mean its new. The box switch is new. The click bar is new.

[davkol]

You were talking about MX Silent is some sort of an innovation first.

I've expressed some doubts about the new Kailh switches too, because I honestly don't know enough about various switches from industrial keyboards or from 30+ years ago.

The switch could still be neat despite not being innovative though.

But, one of the points in my first post in this thread was that for every interesting "new" switch there's a handful of now-vintage switches.

It's like saying nothing really new has happened with cars until Tesla when there have been small tweaks and changes that have brought gasoline cars to where they are today.

Well, the industry was arguably regressing since the economic crisis, moving in a wrong direction for a decade before that, and even before that there were times of stagnation.

But discussing cars is kind of pointless, as I'm eagerly awaiting our new AI overlords and the ban on (1) fossil-fuel-powered vehicles and (2) private ownership of cars. :geekevil:

[OfTheWild]

There was no silent MX based switch prior to the Cherry Silent Red. Unless i've missing something, that means it was the first design change to an MX switch since they came out with the 3 styles of tactile/linear/clicky.

The next design change to the switch would be the linear switch with a click bar to generate sound and tactility but w/o impacting the actuation movement. Again, no one had done that with a MX based switch before.

... i know you know what i'm saying. 
 

[davkol]

I know what you're saying: that something has to be implemented in a switch with MX mount to be considered an innovation.

I call bull****.

[OfTheWild]

Ok. You're entitled to your opinion.

[OfTheWild]

...How can anyone possibly keep up with these?! I JUST got around to a Zealios build a couple months ago. If you plan a build and purchase parts ahead of time (or just when they're actually available), your fancy switches are out of date by the time your custom keyboard ships.

It's nice to have options and improvements, but the arms race on switches seems to be so fast lately that it confuses the market (or maybe just me?!?) since comparisons can't really be made by the individual.

... I was thinking about this earlier this afternoon when I tagged-in my whitefox w/ MOD-M's how the "MOD" switches got kinda washed right over. They were the new hotness for a couple months and then got run over by the never-stopping-color-changing Kailh switch tidal wave. )  There was that brief period of MOD-linear release but that got poo'ed on by Tealios.

[ander]

The best thing I found was to go to a meetup. Everyone has different tastes and rather than buying a board with every single switch type you want to try, or trying to work out if you like a switch form one key on a switch tester, if you go to a meet then you will be able to type on potentially hundreds of different boards with different keycaps, switch types, cases, mods, everything!...

Absolutely right. And just as importantly, you get to hang out with people with that much more experience with various aspects of KB-ism. The forum here is great, but I don't think you ever really feel like part of a community as much as when you go to a real meet.

Competition is good for progress. The quality of switches has been increased significantly in the last 2-3 years...

Again, right on the nose, IMHO.

There is no race..

Everyone is trying to capitalize on the flavor craze... No one has meaningfully improved switches except logitech...Everyone else has simply named their slight variation like weed dealers with a new (alleged) variety every week...

I have a hard time agreeing. For example, Gateron Blacks feel unquestionably smoother to me than MX Blacks (even vintage ones). And there are many testimonials here that what might seem like mere "knockoffs" had turned out to be superior to MXs in various ways.

I can't disregard your opinion, though, since you used a bigger font size than everyone else. It's the Trump Effect: If you say something loudly and aggressively enough, some peeps will always believe it.

Okay, just kidding... About you, I mean—not Trump, unfortunately.  :?P

[rich1051414]

I am not complaining. I like the switches that are coming out, but I do wish it was alps that was getting the innovation personally. However, I am a big fan of zealios and mod switches.
I like how kailh is going a different direction though, and are actually making NEW things, and not tweaking the same exact formula, even though I am not particularly thrilled with their direction, at least it is new.

[Sissy]

I'm all for racing but give me someone making Aristotle equivalents please.
far too much focus on making switches quieter than a crickets fart but I want atom bombs and gravel roads in my switches.

[EscapeVelocity]

Dont forget laser switches!

If they came out with a switch that mimicked the old IBM Selectrec typewriters, that would really cool.

[OfTheWild]

How about a 'medium' profile height switch from Kailh?

[Kavik]

How about a 'medium' profile height switch from Kailh?

Show Image

Is that really a thing? If so, it just seems like abusing the market for switches because they know people will want to buy something new. If anything, I'd like a taller switch; as far as clickies go, I think a bigger switch would have the potential to provide better feel and sound.

[Kevadu]

How about a 'medium' profile height switch from Kailh?

Show Image

Is that really a thing? If so, it just seems like abusing the market for switches because they know people will want to buy something new. If anything, I'd like a taller switch; as far as clickies go, I think a bigger switch would have the potential to provide better feel and sound.

Not to mention a longer travel distance.  I'd go for bigger switches for the reason alone.

Oh wait, the current trend is to shorten travel distances, because...uh...people like bottoming out I guess.

[OfTheWild]

They also made a switch with an RGB light in the center of the stem and then using the round stem as the friction point rather than the +.
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3-c-s.w4002-16836505053.31.7dda62e0u7cCMa&id=562275275910

Its something different and therefore will be "all the rage" for a couple months while people scrutinize its smoothness and lack of stem wobble. I dont suspect people will really latch onto them because they wont be able to swap in a zealios stem or a gateron yellow spring.

[Leslieann]

There is no race and they aren't Pokemon, there is no winner and you don't have to catch them all. Frankly, you don't have to even try them all. While the numbers are intimidating, the more you try, the more you become aware of what you want, for example I can eliminate anything linear right from the start. Someone who likes silent linears isn't going to bother with anything clicky. Once you have a direction grab some testers, attend a meetup or try them in stores (if one has some in stock).

Quick side note about longevity...
Odds of you wearing out a switch are slim and if you do, it's not going to be any time soon barring any defects, which is probably more likely to happen (and since you can replace them, it's not a big deal). Also for those claiming X will last longer, you don't know that and if you opened (and lubed ?) your switches, you really have thrown a wrench into the lifespan. Did you wipe off existing lube? Did you get it where it shouldn't go? Is the lube you put on going to last as long as the factory lube? You can cite numbers and yell Krytox all day long, but it too has not been tested as well as factory Cherry lube has, and did you completely clean off the factory lube first? Will it contaminate it or help it?  The the mere act of opening the switch can introduce contaminants.

[ander]

Of course we could get outside now and then, too—you know, take a walk, look at trees and the sky and stuff? That might help... I'm just theorizing, though.

[Zobeid Zuma]

Shopping for switches reminds me a lot of my time collecting fountain pens.  A lot of fountain pen users are ink-aholics and have to sample every possible brand and color that they can get, and review them, and debate which ink is "better behaved" or "lower maintenance" or more saturated or more lubricated or more waterproof or bleeds and feathers less or shades or sheens better, etc.  And then there are the die-hards who insist on mixing inks to get that perfect combination of traits.

[rich1051414]

Shopping for switches reminds me a lot of my time collecting fountain pens.  A lot of fountain pen users are ink-aholics and have to sample every possible brand and color that they can get, and review them, and debate which ink is "better behaved" or "lower maintenance" or more saturated or more lubricated or more waterproof or bleeds and feathers less or shades or sheens better, etc.  And then there are the die-hards who insist on mixing inks to get that perfect combination of traits.

Silly humans and their ridiculously enthusiastic hobbiesting.