Author Topic: Stabilizer Headaches (Read 7265 times)

pixelpusher · « **on:** Tue, 30 January 2018, 13:55:20 »

At this point it's like a crap shoot. Honestly, I just buy a ton of stabilizers and hope to find a good set. Even the ones that are "genuine" Cherry stabilizers have issues. I'm buying from so many places I can't keep it straight, but mostly mehkee, novelkeys. I have some that came with my order from keyclack and some that came with a board from winkeyless. All good sources, right?

Well, sometimes they are so off that once in the PCB they don't even return after being pressed. I've inspected and what appears to be the issue is inconsistent wire length.

Some of the wires are a millimeter or so longer (measured from bend to bend). Perhaps this is causing the wires to push the inserts against the edges of the sliders? I could do more keyboard science on the topic but I've just been lazy and swapped out parts instead.

I've clipped and lubed them. However, I've never had to lube the outside of the slider inserts before. I always just put thick lube in the hole where the wire goes into the insert, to keep it from rattling. I don't think there should ever be friction between the slider and the insert, should there? I mean, there is plenty of space if everything is made correctly.

The only way I've been able to deal with it is just to buy additional stabilizers and try out different mixes and matches until one feels just right.

So, anyone with similar issues/headaches when it comes to stabilizers?

Kevadu · « **Reply #1 on:** Tue, 30 January 2018, 14:04:22 »

One word: Costar.

xondat · « **Reply #2 on:** Tue, 30 January 2018, 14:05:29 »

I bought lots from GMK and haven't had any issues with them, although not practical on a personal level

)

pixelpusher · « **Reply #3 on:** Tue, 30 January 2018, 14:11:25 »

Quote from: Kevadu on Tue, 30 January 2018, 14:04:22

One word: Costar.

Yeah, I actually did that. Ha. Waiting on a replacement plate for the set I bought. The first costar plate I got had an unfix-able warp to the top right edge that made the switches crooked. But yeah... Costar incoming.

pixelpusher · « **Reply #4 on:** Tue, 30 January 2018, 14:12:12 »

Quote from: xondat on Tue, 30 January 2018, 14:05:29

I bought lots from GMK and haven't had any issues with them, although not practical on a personal level )

I would have assumed the ones I got were from GMK, since they were "genuine" made in Germany. But who knows?

UsualSuspectXXX · « **Reply #5 on:** Tue, 30 January 2018, 14:20:26 »

The one's I've used in the past were from Switch Top. Haven't had any issues.

pixelpusher · « **Reply #6 on:** Tue, 30 January 2018, 14:39:22 »

Quote from: UsualSuspectXXX on Tue, 30 January 2018, 14:20:26

The one's I've used in the past were from Switch Top. Haven't had any issues.

Yeah, I have some from there too. But they are all so mixed up now, I'm not sure which is which

pixelpusher · « **Reply #7 on:** Tue, 30 January 2018, 15:13:10 »

okay, some keyboard science coming up. I have photos and an answer. Also, helpful advice

pixelpusher · « **Reply #8 on:** Tue, 30 January 2018, 15:39:20 »

So, since you guys are too nice and helpful, I couldn't stay lazy. I thought I would help out for people with stabilizer issues.

As I stated in the OP, these are all "genuine" stabilizers from Germany. Also, all from what I consider to be reputable sources. However, here is the issue:

How they stack up

What you see here are the 6.25u stabilizer wires standing side by side. And you have the 3 bears situation happening. One too small, one too big, and one juuuust right.

A closeup of length differences:

So, what are the consequences of these inconsistencies? I installed each of these stabilizer wires, centered them (made sure the wire was in the same spot on left and right), and took some potato photos. I actually only have issues with the one that is the tallest/longest. And here it is installed. You can clearly see the problem (Hint, there is a big pink arrow pointing to it):

Longest wire installed. Bad enough that key does not return after depressed. Arrow points to friction point

And here is a photo of what the short one looks like:

Shortest Wire Installed. Strangely, I don't notice much wrong with this one. Arrow point to friction point

I guess this one is just barely touching, so it doesn't cause issue.

Now for the one that is just right. (the one in the middle)

Middle Length Wire Installed. PERFECT

So there you have it. You can spot problems before you even try out the stabilizer! You want to make sure that the wire is close to the center of the channel for the insert.

Can you fix the wire if it's not centered? Good question. I tried to bend the wires inward on the longest one. It works now... but it's very very rattly. Weird. I probably didn't bend it perfectly straight on both sides. Too much work for me to figure out today. I think I'm just going to have to get a du-bro.

UsualSuspectXXX · « **Reply #9 on:** Thu, 01 February 2018, 09:05:36 »

Thanks for posting this reececonrad. I'll have to pay a bit more close attention to this next time I'm building.

rich1051414 · « **Reply #10 on:** Thu, 01 February 2018, 14:27:34 »

It has been my unpopular opinion for a long time that costar stabilizers sound better than any cherry genuine stab, cut or lubed. However, the convenience is nice, and is the only reason I use them at all. They are rattly and noisy and at best, can only just sound as good as costars do by default.

pixelpusher · « **Reply #11 on:** Thu, 01 February 2018, 14:59:06 »

Quote from: rich1051414 on Thu, 01 February 2018, 14:27:34

It has been my unpopular opinion for a long time that costar stabilizers sound better than any cherry genuine stab, cut or lubed. However, the convenience is nice, and is the only reason I use them at all. They are rattly and noisy and at best, can only just sound as good as costars do by default.

Unfortunately, there are limited options when it comes to building a keyboard with costar stabilizers. Both options will involve some DIY. You either A: design a plate yourself and have it laser cut or B: buy one of the ONLY costar compatible plates from ebay/ali/etc... (they're all the same plate) and have to sand it down to fit in a case.

I know this, b/c I went with option #2. Those costar supported plates sure are nice.... until you go to put them in a case and they don't fit. Got my dremel skillz on the other day, btw. Also, those plates are only standard layout, so no split right shift, no WKL support.

Kavik · « **Reply #12 on:** Thu, 01 February 2018, 15:52:55 »

Would it be possible to widen the channel since it is plastic? That seems like a potentially easier solution than re-bending the wire, assuming you can find a file small enough to fit inside the channel.

pixelpusher · « **Reply #13 on:** Thu, 01 February 2018, 15:57:00 »

Quote from: Kavik on Thu, 01 February 2018, 15:52:55

Would it be possible to widen the channel since it is plastic? That seems like a potentially easier solution than re-bending the wire, assuming you can find a file small enough to fit inside the channel.

That would probably work however I’m thinking down the road I might just start making my own wires. A wire bender only costs $20 and you can get wire at the hobby store. I don’t have any way of injection molding my own plastics

I also think that lubricating that area would do a lot of good as well. I don’t think anyone has ever put lube there before that I know of. You would probably want to use something thin

eksuen · « **Reply #14 on:** Thu, 01 February 2018, 15:59:14 »

I've always applied a bit of lube on the outside the stab inserts. I figured it couldn't hurt.

Leslieann · « **Reply #15 on:** Thu, 01 February 2018, 22:06:38 »

You can get the wire and benders from your local hobby shop and make your own wires.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #16 on:** Thu, 01 February 2018, 23:25:04 »

Quote from: Leslieann on Thu, 01 February 2018, 22:06:38

You can get the wire and benders from your local hobby shop and make your own wires.

it's really hard to make symmetrical wires bends on both sides...

tanvir175 · « **Reply #17 on:** Fri, 02 February 2018, 20:17:52 »

Quote from: reececonrad on Tue, 30 January 2018, 15:39:20

So, since you guys are too nice and helpful, I couldn't stay lazy. I thought I would help out for people with stabilizer issues.

As I stated in the OP, these are all "genuine" stabilizers from Germany. Also, all from what I consider to be reputable sources. However, here is the issue:

How they stack up

(Attachment Link)

What you see here are the 6.25u stabilizer wires standing side by side. And you have the 3 bears situation happening. One too small, one too big, and one juuuust right.

A closeup of length differences:

(Attachment Link)

So, what are the consequences of these inconsistencies? I installed each of these stabilizer wires, centered them (made sure the wire was in the same spot on left and right), and took some potato photos. I actually only have issues with the one that is the tallest/longest. And here it is installed. You can clearly see the problem (Hint, there is a big pink arrow pointing to it):

Longest wire installed. Bad enough that key does not return after depressed. Arrow points to friction point

(Attachment Link)

And here is a photo of what the short one looks like:

Shortest Wire Installed. Strangely, I don't notice much wrong with this one. Arrow point to friction point

(Attachment Link)

I guess this one is just barely touching, so it doesn't cause issue.

Now for the one that is just right. (the one in the middle)

Middle Length Wire Installed. PERFECT

(Attachment Link)

So there you have it. You can spot problems before you even try out the stabilizer! You want to make sure that the wire is close to the center of the channel for the insert.

Can you fix the wire if it's not centered? Good question. I tried to bend the wires inward on the longest one. It works now... but it's very very rattly. Weird. I probably didn't bend it perfectly straight on both sides. Too much work for me to figure out today. I think I'm just going to have to get a du-bro.

Thanks for this! It's super helpful and I'll definitely be sure to check stabs beforehand now.

I ran into this issue on my MF68. Oddly, I was reusing the same stabs that came with it which were working perfectly fine when it arrived.

I desoldered the board to stickerbomb the plate and upon putting it back together, two of the stabs were "bad." That is to say, when depressed, they don't come back up.

At first I thought it was because I used too much thick lube. First time ever lubing anything and I used the thick lube on the sliders, as well, instead of just the wire. So I took them back out and cleaned off all of the lube but I still ran into the issue. I eventually gave up and used it with only the working stabs. The ones that weren't coming back up were the Enter key and the Spacebar :\

invariance · « **Reply #18 on:** Sat, 03 February 2018, 01:44:40 »

A light filing on the outside of the wire where it rubs should work too. Wouldn't be taking much metal off and affecting the strength of the wire. It'd be what, 10 thou each size?

ander · « **Reply #19 on:** Mon, 05 February 2018, 03:47:19 »

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Author Topic: Stabilizer Headaches (Read 7265 times)