Author Topic: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice  (Read 108468 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #100 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 11:39:25 »
I replaced my Logitech Marathon m705 switches yesterday after spending quite some time desoldering, especially the square joint, wouldn't melt! But i did it and it worked!

Today i tried to do the same on a cheaper mouse Logitech M510, it went as a breeze and i was so confident. But went i turned it on, both clicks didn't work, i replaced both. I noticed that the switches were Kailh and i replaced with the Omron, could they not be compatible? Other thing that i might have screwed up when desoldering is i think i removed a metal ring around a joint in the back.

No, they're definitely compatible.

might've soldered too long and melted the switchs internally.

Or the Traces might've been burnt out.


Did you use a solder sucker to reduce the total soldering time ?

Offline JianYang

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #101 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 12:04:58 »
I replaced my Logitech Marathon m705 switches yesterday after spending quite some time desoldering, especially the square joint, wouldn't melt! But i did it and it worked!

Today i tried to do the same on a cheaper mouse Logitech M510, it went as a breeze and i was so confident. But went i turned it on, both clicks didn't work, i replaced both. I noticed that the switches were Kailh and i replaced with the Omron, could they not be compatible? Other thing that i might have screwed up when desoldering is i removed a metal ring around a joint in the back.

Now that i've reopened it and examined the joints, i'm pretty sure it's that metal ring that i removed since the solder doesn't stay down but rather form like a ball on top. If that's the problem, does anyone know how i could replace that metal ring? I thought all circuits are supposed on the other side?

Always add some leaded solder when desoldering, the solder from the factory will be lead-free and adding lead will make it a lot easier to unsolder.

You will have to repair the damaged traces with wire or something like that. Having a picture of the damage might help.

Offline zennon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #102 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 12:27:27 »
I replaced my Logitech Marathon m705 switches yesterday after spending quite some time desoldering, especially the square joint, wouldn't melt! But i did it and it worked!

Today i tried to do the same on a cheaper mouse Logitech M510, it went as a breeze and i was so confident. But went i turned it on, both clicks didn't work, i replaced both. I noticed that the switches were Kailh and i replaced with the Omron, could they not be compatible? Other thing that i might have screwed up when desoldering is i removed a metal ring around a joint in the back.

Now that i've reopened it and examined the joints, i'm pretty sure it's that metal ring that i removed since the solder doesn't stay down but rather form like a ball on top. If that's the problem, does anyone know how i could replace that metal ring? I thought all circuits are supposed on the other side?

Always add some leaded solder when desoldering, the solder from the factory will be lead-free and adding lead will make it a lot easier to unsolder.

You will have to repair the damaged traces with wire or something like that. Having a picture of the damage might help.

Here is a pic :

How to repair that metal ring? I use a pump to remove the solder it came just out with it.

Offline zennon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #103 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 12:29:15 »
199642-0

Pic is the current state. I removed the solder from those middle joints. How to repair those traces?

After further research, those are called eyelets. Do they come off easily when desoldering and what are the most likely cause? It can't be me when both middle joint eyelets came off and not the other 2, right?
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 July 2018, 12:45:05 by zennon »

Offline JianYang

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #104 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 13:00:32 »
(Attachment Link)

Pic is the current state. I removed the solder from those middle joints. How to repair those traces?

After further research, those are called eyelets. Do they come off easily when desoldering and what are the most likely cause? It can't be me when both middle joint eyelets came off and not the other 2, right?

The cause is usually delamination from too much heat, mixed with some physical abuse. You are going to have to trace those tracks out and repair with thin wire. I cannot see from the pic where they use to go.

Offline zennon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #105 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 13:03:21 »
(Attachment Link)

Pic is the current state. I removed the solder from those middle joints. How to repair those traces?

After further research, those are called eyelets. Do they come off easily when desoldering and what are the most likely cause? It can't be me when both middle joint eyelets came off and not the other 2, right?

The cause is usually delamination from too much heat, mixed with some physical abuse. You are going to have to trace those tracks out and repair with thin wire. I cannot see from the pic where they use to go.

I have a different board, can i salvage the eyelets? If so how to remove them?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #106 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 21:10:23 »
I'm guessing the metal ring was the pcb trace.
If so the only fix is to find where the ring, and trance connect to, and run a wire from the switch post to the  spot it used to connect (a jumper wire).
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Offline Boromir

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #107 on: Sat, 21 July 2018, 13:45:48 »
Ordered few D2FC-F-7N switches from ebay for my g700s but what I got are labeled D2FC-F-N and despite the furious googling I can't seem to find any mentions of what that missing 7 means (maybe it's mentioned here already but I'm blind)? I opened one and from quick glance it seems the same as pictures of 7N ones. Should work just as well?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #108 on: Sat, 21 July 2018, 14:31:24 »
Ordered few D2FC-F-7N switches from ebay for my g700s but what I got are labeled D2FC-F-N and despite the furious googling I can't seem to find any mentions of what that missing 7 means (maybe it's mentioned here already but I'm blind)? I opened one and from quick glance it seems the same as pictures of 7N ones. Should work just as well?

Ordered few D2FC-F-7N switches from ebay for my g700s but what I got are labeled D2FC-F-N and despite the furious googling I can't seem to find any mentions of what that missing 7 means (maybe it's mentioned here already but I'm blind)? I opened one and from quick glance it seems the same as pictures of 7N ones. Should work just as well?

probably slight difference in Plunger height.

You'll need a mitutoyo if you want to know for sure though..


Offline Boromir

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #109 on: Sat, 21 July 2018, 17:30:21 »
probably slight difference in Plunger height.

You'll need a mitutoyo if you want to know for sure though..



I do have digital caliper at work but I do not have spare 7N that I could compare to and I rather not open my only working (apart from random double clicks) mouse before I have replacement switch for it. Do you think the (possible) height difference is big enough to matter?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #110 on: Sat, 21 July 2018, 18:35:13 »
probably slight difference in Plunger height.

You'll need a mitutoyo if you want to know for sure though..



I do have digital caliper at work but I do not have spare 7N that I could compare to and I rather not open my only working (apart from random double clicks) mouse before I have replacement switch for it. Do you think the (possible) height difference is big enough to matter?


Depending on the mouse it may or may not matter.

For example, the D2F japan omron is too tall for alot of logitech mice..

While it works fine in Microsoft Classic IME/IMO mices from over 20 yrs ago...


I think you can safely just put it in..


Make sure to be fast on the soldering, because these switches have a 3sec max soldering time..

The traces on these boards are also very thin.

I Recommend 650F.. soldering temperature.


Offline 537Z3R

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #111 on: Wed, 28 November 2018, 06:50:58 »
Where can I find what omron switch should I buy for a Razer Mamba with a left click switch that is failing?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #112 on: Wed, 28 November 2018, 13:45:42 »
Where can I find what omron switch should I buy for a Razer Mamba with a left click switch that is failing?


If it's just the switch, and you're comfortable with soldering small traces,  it's buyable..

It's really easy to over-solder/ over-heat omrons,  people don't realize this, and they're walkn' round with gimpped switches.

But as a general rule,  Logitech makes the best mouse... Find something logitech before going anywhere else..

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #113 on: Wed, 28 November 2018, 17:38:29 »
It's really easy to over-solder/ over-heat omrons,  people don't realize this, and they're walkn' round with gimpped switches.

Omron says not to get the tip hotter than 300c and not more than 3 seconds while most people don't even have a temp controlled iron.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #114 on: Thu, 29 November 2018, 12:47:42 »
It's really easy to over-solder/ over-heat omrons,  people don't realize this, and they're walkn' round with gimpped switches.

Omron says not to get the tip hotter than 300c and not more than 3 seconds while most people don't even have a temp controlled iron.


I think they meant don't get the solder hotter than 300C..  but the tip will probably be 340c to 370c which is common soldering temp.

I guesssss the small joints on omron could be accomplished with 300 C tip , but it might be longer than 3 seconds..

But my iron doesn't have a giant heat mass, so.. i guess if them UBER pro irons, 300C is fine.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #115 on: Thu, 29 November 2018, 18:10:25 »
I think they meant don't get the solder hotter than 300C..  but the tip will probably be 340c to 370c which is common soldering temp.
As per the Omron D2F manual:

"When soldering make sure that the temperature of the tip is not higher than 300c, and complete the soldering within 3 seconds. Do not apply any external force for 1 minute after soldering. Soldering at an excessive high temperature or soldering for more than 3 seconds may deteriorate the characteristics of the switch."
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #116 on: Sun, 06 January 2019, 20:36:25 »
Switched to 1.47 Newton switches for a day,  wow, these are STIFF after using 0.74n for so long..

Offline mikeman

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #117 on: Sat, 02 February 2019, 17:02:46 »
Hi,
I have to replace the switches in my G602. In fact the wheel button does not work, but Ill replace them all. I have problem of identyfing the name of switch/possible replacement of wheel button switch... Anyone knows whst is it?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #118 on: Sat, 02 February 2019, 19:58:53 »
It's probably a PTS645 series switch. I'm not sure of the weight (there is often 2 or 3) and you will need to check pinout and size to be sure, but that is likely it.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #119 on: Sat, 02 February 2019, 21:33:53 »
It's probably a PTS645 series switch. I'm not sure of the weight (there is often 2 or 3) and you will need to check pinout and size to be sure, but that is likely it.

Lots of companies make these,  quite hard to identify, they probably swap between producers between batches as well, because the only Brand critical switch is Omron.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #120 on: Sat, 02 February 2019, 22:51:35 »
It's probably a PTS645 series switch. I'm not sure of the weight (there is often 2 or 3) and you will need to check pinout and size to be sure, but that is likely it.

Lots of companies make these,  quite hard to identify, they probably swap between producers between batches as well, because the only Brand critical switch is Omron.
PTS645, like the D2F is a standardized part. It's not a part number or made by a specific company.
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Offline mikeman

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #121 on: Sun, 03 February 2019, 04:18:24 »
Well, it's not the best source of information, but on aliexp there are pictures (technical ones too) of Omron B3F-1000 and BF3-1002, when searching for wheel button switch g602 and it looks like it would fit, so I have ordered both.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #122 on: Sun, 03 February 2019, 07:30:31 »
Well, it's not the best source of information, but on aliexp there are pictures (technical ones too) of Omron B3F-1000 and BF3-1002, when searching for wheel button switch g602 and it looks like it would fit, so I have ordered both.

as long as the plunger is the same height,  even if the pin doesn't fit, you can just glue it and use small wires. this isn't anything high tech.

Offline AdrianMan

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #123 on: Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:57:41 »
Hey guys :)

I have a Logitech MX master stone and a Logitech G603 wireless.

I was thinking of converting them to use silent switches on the Right/Left Click.

What silent switches do you recommend and are compatible with them to swap the clicky stock ones ?

Thanks !

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #124 on: Fri, 08 March 2019, 07:28:27 »
Hey guys :)

I have a Logitech MX master stone and a Logitech G603 wireless.

I was thinking of converting them to use silent switches on the Right/Left Click.

What silent switches do you recommend and are compatible with them to swap the clicky stock ones ?

Thanks !

Any switches should work in those mice. You just have to match the height and pin schematic.

Even if the pins don't match, as long as the height matches, you can still probably do it by drilling holes and wiring manually.

Offline luns

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #125 on: Mon, 11 March 2019, 17:47:25 »
I did a fair bit of digging into this topic a while ago, but I'm already starting to forget some of my findings. While this thread has wandered in focus a bit, it's probably still the best place for me to note my findings before I forget them further.

First, the switch designations of D2F and D2FC, while they seem similar enough think of as being flavours of the same thing, probably warrants a stronger distinction. Yes, D2F is made in Japan, and D2FC is made in China, but there's more to it than that. The D2F switches are general purpose switches, not targetting specific applications, but are spec'd to try to cover as many different common usages as possible.

The D2FC switches on the other hand, seem to be aimed quite specifically for usage as mouse buttons. There's a presentation for the D2FC-F-K(50M) that specifically introduces it as a Gaming Switch for mouse application. One of the slides points out its footprint is the same as prior D2FC switches, indicating they directly replace earlier D2FC switches that are intended for the same applications (mouses) too.

Regarding switch force, the D2F switches are 150g and 75g for the default and -(01)F variant respectively, with of course some tolerance on these values. Again, being aimed at general purpose usage, these forces are just chosen to cover a wide range of applications. The D2FC switches on the other hand, being specifically for mouses, are tailored to 60g. The have a tolerance of +-15g, so the maximum of this range is 75g, which happens to be the typical force for D2F-(01)F switches. This same number showing up for both switches does not mean they have the same force spec - one is typical, the other maximum. The D2FC is definitely supposed to be lighter than the D2F.

Another distinction is that the D2F is a proper SPDT (3 terminal) switch, whereas the D2FC is only meant to be used as an SPST (2 terminal) switch. The third pin on the D2FC is actually labelled as being a dummy terminal in its mechanical diagrams with the note that it should not be connected to any circuit. The D2F has a contact pad on the NC branch, and has a two-sided contact rivet on the common leaf. The D2FC on the other hand only has a one-sided contact on its common leaf, and the dummy terminal does not have a proper contact pad on it - it's only intended as a mechanical stop and not as an electrical terminal.

This difference may eventually be an issue for me, but we'll see. I modified my mouse with a debounce circuit that puts 0V and 5V on the NO and NC contacts. So far, it's worked great, but if the dummy terminal starts to fail in its NC duty, I'll have unreliable button releases. My switches are already worn to where the NO contact was giving me trouble before I added the debounce circuit, so I'm already beyond my switches' normal lifetime; we'll see how much farther beyond that I can get.

The last difference borne by the datasheets is of the contact ratings. The D2F switches are available with different types of contacts, with the default being 125VAC, 3A (or 1A for -F) silver alloy, and the -01 and -01F switches being Gold alloy rated at 30V, 0.1A. There's also the D2F-5 which is a silver alloy option for 250VAC. The different materials are in the contacts, not the spring as described in other posts.

The Gold alloy is more appropriate for use in mouses, but the D2F-01(F) still isn't ideal. The 0.1A is a maximum load rating, but there is also a corresponding minimum load rating of 1% of that or 1mA. That is to say, if you're using the switch for less than 1mA, the contacts will not necessarily perform reliably to the 2 million cycle spec of the switch. The switches rely on having a certain amount of wetting current to clean the contacts as they open and close, and contact resistance can rise over time if this doesn't happen.

Mouse switches typically would be switching much smaller currents than this, and are thus outside what's recommended for D2F contacts. The D2FC contacts on the other hand are rated for 1mA, and presumably have a much smaller minimum current requirement (I would guess 10uA) that a normal input pull-up should provide.

It's arguable how big a deal the minimum current rating is: without the adequate cleaning current, the switch contact resistance will increase, but with such small currents at play, a mouse can also tolerate much more contact resistance than more typical switching applications. The D2F switches are rated for 2M operations, but this tolerance probably allows them to work to many more cycles as a mouse button than that, whereas D2FC (10M, 20M, 50M) ratings probably account for this already, being their intended application. It's possible even that the contacts are actually the same (aside from the absent NC side), and their different ratings are just a matter of having different definitions for the differing applications.


Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #127 on: Mon, 11 March 2019, 20:21:24 »
I did a fair bit of digging into this topic a while ago,

I'll certainly add some of this, great stuff, and hard to come by as you probably found.

I purposely left off some of your details because for our use it's pretty irrelevant, but when I do update the first post I'll put a link to this post for those who want to read more on it they can.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)