Author Topic: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?  (Read 2684 times)

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Offline ideus

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Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 10:25:11 »

I am revisiting, "my preferred layout in my very own way."


There is no need to elaborate on a simple fact: I use a forty size keyboard because I can pay for it, and I like it. In the same way, I could prefer a battleship or something in the middle, and I do not need to convince anyone: my money, my likes, my way.


Consumer remorse reflects on what is called rationalization. Rationalize is a person that got something that does not meet her expectations and needs to justify it.


In this forum, there are many daily examples of over-elaboration—cases where people are trying to convince others that his preferences are justified.


What items in your collection have required the bravest posts on rationalizing them? How many times have you done it? Share your thoughts.


Offline Maledicted

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 13:01:39 »
I think I'm pretty straightforward about what keyboards I own that are pretty much pointless, but they're cool anyway. I doubt I'll ever type for an extended period on my F XT ever again. My Ajazz AK33 is terrible in just about every single way other than size, price, and relatively cool RGB options for that price (if that matters).

Could you maybe elaborate on where this is going? Preference is preference, unless somebody can't give an alternative a fair shake, there's no arguing for or against the preferences of someone else. Justification is only involved in objective facts.

Relatedly, then, why would anybody ever need to attempt to rationalize the use and/or ownership of keyboards that they, in fact, do not like/prefer over others?

What about rationalizing anything requires bravery, in your estimation? I always figure it is more difficult to be objective, especially when it comes to potentially wasting money on something that sucks.

I can play along though, for fun. My F107 and F77 have many uses outside of typing. I can chock the wheels of semi trucks on steep inclines with them, anchor boats with them, knock out intruders, use them as body armor, weigh down tarps in high winds with them, use them in place of sledge hammers for demolition, tie off on them for bungee jumping, etc, etc. Their utility is endless.

Offline -Jerry-

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 13:28:55 »
I can play along though, for fun. My F107 and F77 have many uses outside of typing. I can chock the wheels of semi trucks on steep inclines with them, anchor boats with them, knock out intruders, use them as body armor, weigh down tarps in high winds with them, use them in place of sledge hammers for demolition, tie off on them for bungee jumping, etc, etc. Their utility is endless.

I always thought that if I could get the TRSS cables to attach more firmly, my Iris' would make an excellent nunchaku type weapon.
     
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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 13:39:56 »
I can play along though, for fun. My F107 and F77 have many uses outside of typing. I can chock the wheels of semi trucks on steep inclines with them, anchor boats with them, knock out intruders, use them as body armor, weigh down tarps in high winds with them, use them in place of sledge hammers for demolition, tie off on them for bungee jumping, etc, etc. Their utility is endless.

I always thought that if I could get the TRSS cables to attach more firmly, my Iris' would make an excellent nunchaku type weapon.

I think they may make some that can be threaded on. I know I have seen it with some 2.5mm, or so, connectors on fancy Sony camera microphones.

Offline jamster

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 19:49:32 »
Consumer remorse reflects on what is called rationalization. Rationalize is a person that got something that does not meet her expectations and needs to justify it.


In this forum, there are many daily examples of over-elaboration—cases where people are trying to convince others that his preferences are justified.


What items in your collection have required the bravest posts on rationalizing them? How many times have you done it? Share your thoughts.

I've been vocal about my preferences for TKL. There's certainly no consumer remorse though, my three daily TKLs are all out of of production, two are relatively rare and I consider it good luck that I ended up with them.

The only boards that I needed to justify to myself were keeping my two Model Ms. I've told myself that they're to be kept indefinitely despite very limited storage space and moving between several countries, and will be used by my children. This has recently happened and my son's description of an M is that it's more 'fun' than his normal one, and he likes the numpad, so I now feel better about keeping Ms the past couple of decades.

I'm not sure that most keyboard preferences require rationalisation- they're for the most part easily affordable (ignoring boutique, small run examples) and are largely interchangeable. The part that requires rationalisation is our obsession with them, when the vast majority of society consider keyboards to be about as interesting as doorknobs.

This makes me think though, I've been fairly scathing of the trend here for overly elaborate keyboard cases. This is more an anti-preference though, and posting grouchy comments about about the misguided youf of today is hardly bravery.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 20:53:55 »
My keyboard prefers to be kept clean (and especially free of food crumbs and grease), to not have its electrical connections jiggled, and to not be typed on extra hard when its owner is in an irritated mood.
 
Were our leaders just stupid? Well, maybe. But there’s a deeper explanation of the profoundly self-destructive behavior of Trump and his allies: They were all members of America’s cult of selfishness. You see, the modern US right is committed to the proposition that greed is good, that we’re all better off when individuals engage in the untrammeled pursuit of self-interest. In their vision, unrestricted profit maximization by businesses and unregulated consumer choice is the recipe for a good society.
Support for this proposition is, if anything, more emotional than intellectual. I’ve long been struck by the intensity of right-wing anger against relatively trivial regulations, like bans on phosphates in detergent and efficiency standards for light bulbs. It’s the principle of the thing: Many on the right are enraged at any suggestion that their actions should take other people’s welfare into account. This rage is sometimes portrayed as love of freedom. But people who insist on the right to pollute are notably unbothered by, say, federal agents tear-gassing peaceful protesters. What they call “freedom” is actually absence of responsibility.
Rational policy in a pandemic, however, is all about taking responsibility. The main reason you shouldn’t go to a bar and should wear a mask isn’t self-protection, although that’s part of it; the point is that congregating in noisy, crowded spaces or exhaling droplets into shared air puts others at risk. And that’s the kind of thing America’s right just hates, hates to hear. Anger at any suggestion of social responsibility also helps explain the looming fiscal catastrophe.  – Paul Krugman 2020-07-28 NYT

Offline funkmon

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 21:09:54 »
Okay, I have always rationalized Models M superiority over virtually all keyboards for two reasons: layout and sound.

That's right, yes, but it's because I was too big of a wuss to really give the Models F a shot. I always maintained that the number pad was indispensable, which it is, but I didn't think I could avoid being annoyed at the lack of nav cluster, and the stepped keys I knew would be irritating. Well, it turns out, the stepped keys aren't irritating and I'm not annoyed by the lack of nav cluster, as you can apparently just hit shift plus the number key to use the navigation commands, which I ONLY RECENTLY FOUND OUT! God damn.

Anyway, this fact, plus the higher pitched pingier sound, made me go with Models M or other keyboards in a modern layout. While I am still completely satisfied with Models M, I now prefer the damn XT.

This very thing prompted me to buy a 4704, since its layout could be changed to that of the M, plus a few extra keys, plus the sound would be lessened a bit. It's why I tried an AT, as it would make the sound thockier.

But now, after using the M, after using the F107, after using the AT, after all that ****, I still think the Model F XT is the best keyboard and I have been trying to rationalize other, less good keyboards because of the layout and sound. It turns out I was just too big of a wuss to learn to like the sound and the layout! Now it's fine.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 22:36:06 »
You may rationalize what you spend, but not sure you need to rationalize the feel, at least not if you have many to pick from.

As for old IBM boards, they've earned their reputation, I don't think there's a need to rationalize anything about them.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline cheesy_jones

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 03 August 2020, 13:43:19 »
I think possibly subjectivity is being confused with rationale here.

Offline TeemoShroom

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 15:52:04 »
I'm relatively new to keyboards but some things I've seen people rationalize whilst researching and browsing:

20%/30%/40% boards: "I use multiple layers and that makes me more productive, my 20 switch keyboard has more "keys" then your fullsize due to the use of layers!". Maybe I'm still a noob, but couldn't you program custom layers and layouts on 60%/65%/TKL/Fullsize as well? Why would a smaller board with custom layers be more productive then a bigger board with custom layouts and layers? Having extra desk space is definitely a plus though.

Aviator cables: "I switch keyboards often so the use of an $100 aviator cable will preserve the keyboards USB plug". Sure, but wouldn't a USB hub or USB extension cable with a shorter 6" USB cable do the same thing for $10 and be more practical?

"Holy Pandas are the best switches! the tactile bump is nice, smooth and round! Other tactile switches such as T1s, Box Royals and Zealios are ttttooooooo tactile and just jarring!" I wish I could afford some Holy Pandas to try just for the hype, but I feel I might just be disappointed. I also understand different people have different taste, sight, hearing, feeling and what I sense is different from what someone else might sense and this is why people have different preferences.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 17:02:23 »
I'm relatively new to keyboards but some things I've seen people rationalize whilst researching and browsing:

20%/30%/40% boards: "I use multiple layers and that makes me more productive, my 20 switch keyboard has more "keys" then your fullsize due to the use of layers!". Maybe I'm still a noob, but couldn't you program custom layers and layouts on 60%/65%/TKL/Fullsize as well? Why would a smaller board with custom layers be more productive then a bigger board with custom layouts and layers? Having extra desk space is definitely a plus though.

I believe that the best argument there is that the keys that they use most are exactly where they want them without having to entirely leave the home row (like arrow keys, etc). Otherwise, yes, the reasoning doesn't really objectively go anywhere else besides that and size. Another thing repeatedly mentioned is it has some sort of ergonomic benefit, in specific circumstances, like hands being closer together when mousing/gaming, making up for some kind of handicap, etc. I find that to be almost intangible, certainly at least personalized, if not entirely subjective. Maybe not though.

Personally, I recently found that my preference for ctrl being exactly where it is on a modern keyboard, and being dumbfounded by the preference of some to have it where Capslock traditionally is, may itself be a bit of an anomaly based on the fact that I have pretty long fingers and am double jointed. There are certainly exceptions to every rule, and even rules that should not be so.

Aviator cables: "I switch keyboards often so the use of an $100 aviator cable will preserve the keyboards USB plug". Sure, but wouldn't a USB hub or USB extension cable with a shorter 6" USB cable do the same thing for $10 and be more practical?

Aviator connectors, themselves, are not very expensive. making your own cables is cheap. Those pointless inline aviator connectors ... in an otherwise normal USB cable don't have much going for them in the practical department if you ask me. I would worry more about the weight they add to the more fragile connectors on either end, and physical damage to them, than the number of insertions. I have never permanently damaged a USB connector just by plugging it in and unplugging it before. I did recently have the plastic inside of a USB type A connector (my first of any kind) break off due to the weight of my custom cable, over time. In that way, USB hubs are better than fancy aviator cables. I like to add female GX12 aviator sockets to the cases of the keyboards I customize, then I can literally pick the keyboard up by the cable. That makes a custom cable worth it. Those blingy ones, not so much.

"Holy Pandas are the best switches! the tactile bump is nice, smooth and round! Other tactile switches such as T1s, Box Royals and Zealios are ttttooooooo tactile and just jarring!" I wish I could afford some Holy Pandas to try just for the hype, but I feel I might just be disappointed. I also understand different people have different taste, sight, hearing, feeling and what I sense is different from what someone else might sense and this is why people have different preferences.

Yeah, a general consensus, if primarily based on experience, is good, even if it is subjective. We only run into problems when too many people support that consensus because that's what they heard without experience and/or are influenced by said consensus over their own perception. Even if this were never a problem, you still need to find what you prefer. The switches popularly considered to be the best in any category should merely be good reference points for your own comparison.

There's no one switch to rule them all. There are people who love Cherry MX Brown and swear by them compared to anything else they have tried. Personally, I can't think of much else worse than MX brown. I, personally, love capacitive buckling spring. Others hate it in spite of its feel because of the way it sounds. Some even think membrane buckling spring feels better to them, even though the conventional wisdom is that capacitive (IBM Models F) buckling spring is superior, etc, etc.
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 August 2020, 17:16:53 by Maledicted »

Offline Polymer

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 19:27:58 »

I am revisiting, "my preferred layout in my very own way."


There is no need to elaborate on a simple fact: I use a forty size keyboard because I can pay for it, and I like it. In the same way, I could prefer a battleship or something in the middle, and I do not need to convince anyone: my money, my likes, my way.


Consumer remorse reflects on what is called rationalization. Rationalize is a person that got something that does not meet her expectations and needs to justify it.


In this forum, there are many daily examples of over-elaboration—cases where people are trying to convince others that his preferences are justified.


What items in your collection have required the bravest posts on rationalizing them? How many times have you done it? Share your thoughts.

Discussing their preference is not necessarily rationalization...To you it might seem like it and maybe it really is but I think what happens is if a person disagrees with another person, they think that person is rationalizing their purchase.

Eg.  Many years ago some people used to think people that bought Topre or a HHKB were just rationalizing their decision because it was relatively expensive and they had to justify their purchase.  People that actually liked Topre knew otherwise but to those that tried it and hated it, could only comprehend that those people are wrong and must be rationalizing their purchase.

Given the relatively high resale of most niche keyboards, there is very little need to rationalize your purchases because you could just sell it for a minimal loss and move on. 



Offline Maledicted

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 19:56:19 »
Eg.  Many years ago some people used to think people that bought Topre or a HHKB were just rationalizing their decision because it was relatively expensive and they had to justify their purchase.  People that actually liked Topre knew otherwise but to those that tried it and hated it, could only comprehend that those people are wrong and must be rationalizing their purchase.

Topre seems great to me, and I don't even particularly like tactiles. If you put it head to head against any random rubber domes, it can be easy to see why some people feel it is overblown, but it is so much more refined, smooth, and consistent. It isn't right for everyone, but you would think that anybody with an open mind could see its intrinsic value regardless after having tried it, and considering that it is capacitive without the inherent weakness of a membrane, etc.

Offline -Jerry-

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 02:34:00 »
Personally, I recently found that my preference for ctrl being exactly where it is on a modern keyboard, and being dumbfounded by the preference of some to have it where Capslock traditionally is, may itself be a bit of an anomaly based on the fact that I have pretty long fingers and am double jointed. There are certainly exceptions to every rule, and even rules that should not be so.

This. Especially if you're used to shortcuts the way they are and prefer to retain muscle memory for such. If I'm being honest, I really can't see the benefit of HHKB/WKL layouts other than aesthetics. There's an argument that WKLs helped gamers not hit the win key during games, but these days that makes no sense to me. No, I like my keys where they are.

On the subject of capslock though, one thing that using Colemak for a while got me onto was that your left pinkie finger is lazy. Slap a backspace where capslock lives, put it to work! That said, I run a backspace in the caps position and in the top right now, because I never know which side of the keyboard I'll want to use at any given time, haha. Layers mean that's not an issue though, because the capslock is still the capslock when I want it to be *shrug*
     
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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 09:58:28 »
Personally, I recently found that my preference for ctrl being exactly where it is on a modern keyboard, and being dumbfounded by the preference of some to have it where Capslock traditionally is, may itself be a bit of an anomaly based on the fact that I have pretty long fingers and am double jointed. There are certainly exceptions to every rule, and even rules that should not be so.

This. Especially if you're used to shortcuts the way they are and prefer to retain muscle memory for such. If I'm being honest, I really can't see the benefit of HHKB/WKL layouts other than aesthetics. There's an argument that WKLs helped gamers not hit the win key during games, but these days that makes no sense to me. No, I like my keys where they are.

On the subject of capslock though, one thing that using Colemak for a while got me onto was that your left pinkie finger is lazy. Slap a backspace where capslock lives, put it to work! That said, I run a backspace in the caps position and in the top right now, because I never know which side of the keyboard I'll want to use at any given time, haha. Layers mean that's not an issue though, because the capslock is still the capslock when I want it to be *shrug*

Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my years in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, making capslock actually useful for something is definitely a noble goal. There's no reason for that key to even exist.
« Last Edit: Wed, 05 August 2020, 11:13:13 by Maledicted »

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 10:38:29 »
Personally, I recently found that my preference for ctrl being exactly where it is on a modern keyboard, and being dumbfounded by the preference of some to have it where Capslock traditionally is, may itself be a bit of an anomaly based on the fact that I have pretty long fingers and am double jointed. There are certainly exceptions to every rule, and even rules that should not be so.

This. Especially if you're used to shortcuts the way they are and prefer to retain muscle memory for such. If I'm being honest, I really can't see the benefit of HHKB/WKL layouts other than aesthetics. There's an argument that WKLs helped gamers not hit the win key during games, but these days that makes no sense to me. No, I like my keys where they are.

On the subject of capslock though, one thing that using Colemak for a while got me onto was that your left pinkie finger is lazy. Slap a backspace where capslock lives, put it to work! That said, I run a backspace in the caps position and in the top right now, because I never know which side of the keyboard I'll want to use at any given time, haha. Layers mean that's not an issue though, because the capslock is still the capslock when I want it to be *shrug*

Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my hears in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, making capslock actually useful for something is definitely a noble goal. There's no reason for that key to even exist.

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Offline -Jerry-

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 11:20:14 »

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe
« Last Edit: Wed, 05 August 2020, 11:31:54 by -Jerry- »
     
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Offline CarnageHimura

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 14:58:08 »

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

I think I can, let me try! xD  I'm been testing this "HHKB" thing of putting Ctrl on the CapsLock on my ALT, at first, because I read here someone saying that he barely used CapsLock and only presses it by error, so I give it a try, is quick to get used to have Ctrl there and, the most important I think, you start to use more a key that was relegated to a very low use and you Win a new Function/Layer Key on the bottom row.

At this point, it hasn't occurred to me what new functions to put in the new layer for that key, but that's not the discussion right now, jejeje

Offline -Jerry-

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 15:29:20 »
Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

I think I can, let me try! xD  I'm been testing this "HHKB" thing of putting Ctrl on the CapsLock on my ALT, at first, because I read here someone saying that he barely used CapsLock and only presses it by error, so I give it a try, is quick to get used to have Ctrl there and, the most important I think, you start to use more a key that was relegated to a very low use and you Win a new Function/Layer Key on the bottom row.

At this point, it hasn't occurred to me what new functions to put in the new layer for that key, but that's not the discussion right now, jejeje

That argument can be made for any key though, which is the beauty of programmable keyboards. It's all personal preference, of course, but I run Tap = Backspace, Hold = Layer 2 on my CapsLock key, so gain a backspace for my left little finger (which now actually gets used) AND an extra function key, from the same key. Plus I get the bonus of having Ctrl in the same place it always is for shortcuts.

My point about HHKB layout is that it's purely for the aesthetic, it serves no real purpose. Sure, you can move the Ctrl key to Caps Lock, but you can do that without removing keys in the lower corners.
     
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Offline CarnageHimura

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 16:58:54 »
Yes, I totally understand your point, for example I really cant use a KB without Win Key, why? personal preferencie, I use that thing a lot and really don't understand the people who hates it (unless they hate Windows and only use Linux) but as all, is a mater of personal preference...

Now... I'm more intrigued on your double tap key configuration, I really need to start diving on QMK advanced configurations!

Offline -Jerry-

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 17:37:57 »
Yes, I totally understand your point, for example I really cant use a KB without Win Key, why? personal preferencie, I use that thing a lot and really don't understand the people who hates it (unless they hate Windows and only use Linux) but as all, is a mater of personal preference...

Now... I'm more intrigued on your double tap key configuration, I really need to start diving on QMK advanced configurations!

It’s really simple to implement, just LT(Layer Number, Keycode) - so on my CapsLock key I have it set as LT(2,KC_BSPC)

You can do the same thing with any modifier key, so you can have your control key be capslock when tapped and control when held, for example LCTL_T(KC_CAPS)
     
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Offline CarnageHimura

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 22:52:43 »
I'm already aplied that change to my CapsLock and now I have the best of both worlds, jejeje, Thank you!

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 23:08:54 »
Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my years in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Some people hit it A LOT.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 06 August 2020, 10:32:56 »
Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my years in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Some people hit it A LOT.

Sure, I just can't wrap my head around how.

Offline rhubarbpi

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 06 August 2020, 10:56:45 »

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

For Software development!
Having Control in the Capslock place makes it much easier to manipulate commands in an IDE when you code!

Any other purpose though, and its frustrating lol
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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 06 August 2020, 11:26:51 »

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

For Software development!
Having Control in the Capslock place makes it much easier to manipulate commands in an IDE when you code!

Any other purpose though, and its frustrating lol

Could you explain? It has been a long time since I have done any programming, and that was mostly just in Eclipse, whatever little of it I did do.

Offline rhubarbpi

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 06 August 2020, 15:40:42 »

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

For Software development!
Having Control in the Capslock place makes it much easier to manipulate commands in an IDE when you code!

Any other purpose though, and its frustrating lol

Could you explain? It has been a long time since I have done any programming, and that was mostly just in Eclipse, whatever little of it I did do.
Eclipse! I have to use JDeveloper because I work on a legacy project at work :( lol

CTRL A to copy code, CTRL S to save the file, CTRL V to place copied code - plus CTRL clicking with mouse on variables to find appropriate methods.  The fact that A & S are so close in this layout, with V not far, makes it easier to me to use my pinky when in the Zone.

My 3 daily drivers are all vintage Apple at this point, and after using them all extensively, the IIgs & M0116 I simply work faster in code than the M0115 because of it. 

That being said, I just speak for myself as I know others despise the Unix layout lol
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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 06 August 2020, 19:33:49 »

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

For Software development!
Having Control in the Capslock place makes it much easier to manipulate commands in an IDE when you code!

Any other purpose though, and its frustrating lol

Could you explain? It has been a long time since I have done any programming, and that was mostly just in Eclipse, whatever little of it I did do.
Eclipse! I have to use JDeveloper because I work on a legacy project at work :( lol

CTRL A to copy code, CTRL S to save the file, CTRL V to place copied code - plus CTRL clicking with mouse on variables to find appropriate methods.  The fact that A & S are so close in this layout, with V not far, makes it easier to me to use my pinky when in the Zone.

My 3 daily drivers are all vintage Apple at this point, and after using them all extensively, the IIgs & M0116 I simply work faster in code than the M0115 because of it. 

That being said, I just speak for myself as I know others despise the Unix layout lol

Almost all of those are pretty commonly-used hotkeys in most applications. ctrl being close to ctrl a and s, if you're using them literally every few minutes, or more often than that, does make sense. I don't mind the modern standard positioning for ctrl for any of that myself. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 06 August 2020, 20:57:37 »
I am always flummoxed when I see these discussions about Control.

Having Control key(s) at the extreme outside bottom corners of the main body of keys makes them exceptionally easy to find - the perfect place for them, in my opinion.
Were our leaders just stupid? Well, maybe. But there’s a deeper explanation of the profoundly self-destructive behavior of Trump and his allies: They were all members of America’s cult of selfishness. You see, the modern US right is committed to the proposition that greed is good, that we’re all better off when individuals engage in the untrammeled pursuit of self-interest. In their vision, unrestricted profit maximization by businesses and unregulated consumer choice is the recipe for a good society.
Support for this proposition is, if anything, more emotional than intellectual. I’ve long been struck by the intensity of right-wing anger against relatively trivial regulations, like bans on phosphates in detergent and efficiency standards for light bulbs. It’s the principle of the thing: Many on the right are enraged at any suggestion that their actions should take other people’s welfare into account. This rage is sometimes portrayed as love of freedom. But people who insist on the right to pollute are notably unbothered by, say, federal agents tear-gassing peaceful protesters. What they call “freedom” is actually absence of responsibility.
Rational policy in a pandemic, however, is all about taking responsibility. The main reason you shouldn’t go to a bar and should wear a mask isn’t self-protection, although that’s part of it; the point is that congregating in noisy, crowded spaces or exhaling droplets into shared air puts others at risk. And that’s the kind of thing America’s right just hates, hates to hear. Anger at any suggestion of social responsibility also helps explain the looming fiscal catastrophe.  – Paul Krugman 2020-07-28 NYT

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 06 August 2020, 21:14:11 »
Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my years in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Some people hit it A LOT.

Sure, I just can't wrap my head around how.
In my experience, it's mostly while gaming, there's nothing to home your fingers to when using WASD, being off by one key is all it takes for a crouch to get booted out of a game.
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Offline jamster

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 06 August 2020, 22:05:33 »
I am always flummoxed when I see these discussions about Control.

Having Control key(s) at the extreme outside bottom corners of the main body of keys makes them exceptionally easy to find - the perfect place for them, in my opinion.

Personally, having Control and Caps Lock swapped around brings control onto the home row. Both positions are easy to find, but home row is a fair bit easier as well as more natural.



In my experience, it's mostly while gaming, there's nothing to home your fingers to when using WASD, being off by one key is all it takes for a crouch to get booted out of a game.

I shift my WASD keys to ESDF. That means my fingers are homed using the F key, and there are also extra keys (around 4) available for in-game use.

A long time ago, I used to occasionally hit the Windows key when gaming, but don't recall this happening since shifting to ESDF. This is probably helped by the Windows key being even harder to reach with my pinky or ring finger with this lateral shift.
« Last Edit: Thu, 06 August 2020, 22:08:06 by jamster »

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 08 August 2020, 09:45:08 »
For one, Ctrl --> Capslock

It means that you don't need to move your hand down . Wrist ergonomics
Who even uses Caps lock anyway

Just move your pinky left , and you have access to Ctrl X, C, V without moving your hand in a bad position



Also while gaming it is good to crouch spam, and you don't need to move far away. 

Offline Polymer

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 08 August 2020, 21:26:28 »
Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my years in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Some people hit it A LOT.

Sure, I just can't wrap my head around how.
In my experience, it's mostly while gaming, there's nothing to home your fingers to when using WASD, being off by one key is all it takes for a crouch to get booted out of a game.

Isn't it just easier having a windows key lock rather than remove it completely? 

Seems better than getting rid of it completely and replacing it with nothing...If you like the look, that's a different subject..

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 08 August 2020, 21:53:50 »
Isn't it just easier having a windows key lock rather than remove it completely? 

Seems better than getting rid of it completely and replacing it with nothing...If you like the look, that's a different subject..
Not every board supports that and many that do require you to flip the board and toggle a switch. Not exactly practical.

Also, not every OS needs a Winkey.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #34 on: Sat, 08 August 2020, 23:45:12 »
Isn't it just easier having a windows key lock rather than remove it completely? 

Seems better than getting rid of it completely and replacing it with nothing...If you like the look, that's a different subject..
Not every board supports that and many that do require you to flip the board and toggle a switch. Not exactly practical.

Also, not every OS needs a Winkey.

Sure but you're talking about WKL right?  So how many modern keyboards come without it?  So if you're making a winkeyless keyboard, you could just as easily incorporate a win key lock via software rather than dipswitch.

And for an OS that doesn't need winkey...having one and accidentally hitting it isn't an issue either right? 

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 09 August 2020, 02:18:13 »
Sure but you're talking about WKL right?  So how many modern keyboards come without it?  So if you're making a winkeyless keyboard, you could just as easily incorporate a win key lock via software rather than dipswitch.

And for an OS that doesn't need winkey...having one and accidentally hitting it isn't an issue either right?
Many modern boards require software to lock it out if they don't use a dipswitch, rarely do they support anything other than Windows. Yes, I could put in a firmware lockout if I design my own but if I pretty much never use it then what's the point? It costs me extra time designing and the price of another switch.


The Winkey can still do things you don't want, for example in Linux it allows you to drag a window.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 09 August 2020, 16:10:33 »
Sure but you're talking about WKL right?  So how many modern keyboards come without it?  So if you're making a winkeyless keyboard, you could just as easily incorporate a win key lock via software rather than dipswitch.

And for an OS that doesn't need winkey...having one and accidentally hitting it isn't an issue either right?
Many modern boards require software to lock it out if they don't use a dipswitch, rarely do they support anything other than Windows. Yes, I could put in a firmware lockout if I design my own but if I pretty much never use it then what's the point? It costs me extra time designing and the price of another switch.


The Winkey can still do things you don't want, for example in Linux it allows you to drag a window.

What's the point?  You mean what's the point of having a keyboard that can cover many different bases? 

If you're designing a keyboard, why would you want to be limited when you can do both?

You're making up these reasons but lets be honest, they're really weak. 

I get why some people want WKL, they like the way it looks and they don't ever need the key..but functionally, there is basically no reason to do it.  There are better ways to implement it while maintaining the flexibility and functionality. 

Again, if you just like the way it looks  :thumb:
But if you're going to say it isn't worth putting in because it requires another switch.  Or say how other OS's aren't windows so they don't need it and then say how they do use it...it really just comes down to:  If the only reason you want WKL is because you accidentally hit it during gaming, wouldn't it be better just to make it so you can turn off the WIN key when needed rather than actually remove it from the keyboard?  Answer seems pretty obvious...

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 09 August 2020, 20:41:17 »
Ergonomics Can't be rationalized.

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 09 August 2020, 21:05:20 »
If you're designing a keyboard, why would you want to be limited when you can do both?

You're making up these reasons but lets be honest, they're really weak. 
Going by that logic we should all be using full size, "just don't use the extra keys, why limit yourself".

I never said this was for everyone, the thread is rationalizing our preferences
I run Linux, my biggest use of the Winkey is to shift a window without grabbing the top bar, that's it. I have the left Winkey blocked off of the Filco and I disable it on the GMMK.
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Offline Sintpinty

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #39 on: Sun, 09 August 2020, 21:23:05 »
It doesn't matter about my keyboards preferences because they aren't a living being. It can be whatever i want it to

Offline Polymer

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 10 August 2020, 03:53:16 »
If you're designing a keyboard, why would you want to be limited when you can do both?

You're making up these reasons but lets be honest, they're really weak. 
Going by that logic we should all be using full size, "just don't use the extra keys, why limit yourself".

I never said this was for everyone, the thread is rationalizing our preferences
I run Linux, my biggest use of the Winkey is to shift a window without grabbing the top bar, that's it. I have the left Winkey blocked off of the Filco and I disable it on the GMMK.

Is that the logic in your head?  So you equate the Winkey which doesn't change the keyboard shape or actual usage to that of Full size vs. TKL, etc?  That's a pretty big stretch and I'm sure you know it. 

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 10 August 2020, 10:46:31 »
Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my years in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Some people hit it A LOT.

Sure, I just can't wrap my head around how.
In my experience, it's mostly while gaming, there's nothing to home your fingers to when using WASD, being off by one key is all it takes for a crouch to get booted out of a game.

I know gaming is where it is most maligned. How many games use ctrl for crouch? It seems to me to usually be c or something. ctrl is rarely used at all in most games I have played, sometimes to control run/walk instead of caps or something else in the periphery of usefulness. Regardless, I think wandering from wasd is easily avoidable, and in any fast-paced game of reasonable difficulty, it seems you would probably be dead whether you minimized the game or just accidentally hit the wrong navigation key or secondary control.

For one, Ctrl --> Capslock

It means that you don't need to move your hand down . Wrist ergonomics
Who even uses Caps lock anyway

Just move your pinky left , and you have access to Ctrl X, C, V without moving your hand in a bad position



Also while gaming it is good to crouch spam, and you don't need to move far away. 

I don't move my hand to use ctrl. I may well be a space alien or something though.

Offline jamster

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 10 August 2020, 11:41:07 »
If you're designing a keyboard, why would you want to be limited when you can do both?

You're making up these reasons but lets be honest, they're really weak. 
Going by that logic we should all be using full size, "just don't use the extra keys, why limit yourself".

I never said this was for everyone, the thread is rationalizing our preferences
I run Linux, my biggest use of the Winkey is to shift a window without grabbing the top bar, that's it. I have the left Winkey blocked off of the Filco and I disable it on the GMMK.

Is that the logic in your head?  So you equate the Winkey which doesn't change the keyboard shape or actual usage to that of Full size vs. TKL, etc?  That's a pretty big stretch and I'm sure you know it.

I think that the spirit of this thread is that our preferences don't really have to make that much sense to others.

Personally, I have no issue with the Windows key even though I haven't used it for years (started using it this year just for moving windows around). I find it perfectly harmless, and keep wondering why people continue to ask for WKL on group buy keyboards.

I can understand the preference for spacing between keys though. I personally find the arrow cluster far more usable when they are standalone.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 10 August 2020, 21:14:49 »
If you're designing a keyboard, why would you want to be limited when you can do both?

You're making up these reasons but lets be honest, they're really weak. 
Going by that logic we should all be using full size, "just don't use the extra keys, why limit yourself".

I never said this was for everyone, the thread is rationalizing our preferences
I run Linux, my biggest use of the Winkey is to shift a window without grabbing the top bar, that's it. I have the left Winkey blocked off of the Filco and I disable it on the GMMK.

Is that the logic in your head?  So you equate the Winkey which doesn't change the keyboard shape or actual usage to that of Full size vs. TKL, etc?  That's a pretty big stretch and I'm sure you know it.
You said why "be limited", well if you're going to say shaving a key is limiting myself then the clear answer must be we should all use a full size because everything else is limiting. You can always turn off numlock right? I was throwing your logic back at you.

I don't get the problem, lot's of keyboards are winkeyless by choice.
Some do it due to hatred of the key, some don't need it, some prefer the looks, I just don't have a need for it. Had you asked me this 8  or 10 years ago, absolutely I would have demanded keeping it, it's really useful in Windows. It's less useful in Linux.

Actually the real reason is I just hate seeing that stupid icon. /S
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Offline ideus

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 12 August 2020, 13:16:22 »

On rationalizing a vendor's misbehaving.


GMK is ignoring the issues on its spacebars, and they are keeping up the production and taking more orders. It appears that it does not matter how bad the quality is getting lately. GMK is stubbornly manufacturing keycap sets with the same warping defects.
The continuous flow of GMK interest checks and group buy at GH is an example of a collective rationalization. It is also called group-thinking. While some boards are getting posts after posts with complaints, GB leaders are steadily quoting more keycap sets with GMK.
What is happening? Are we the sort of blind consumer that keep buying products, even with severe and ugly quality issues? Are we blind GMK fanboys?


Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 12 August 2020, 13:53:27 »
GMK does not have huge problem . . .

It's not life or death,   spacebar fits properly  .

GMK known to not fix molds  .  But it shows that laziness creates opportunity for competitors to arise  (see AMD / Intel )


Offline livewirerc

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 12 August 2020, 14:05:45 »
The only person I have to rationalize to is my girlfriend about why I never have any non-HHKB layout keyboards attached to the media machine.

Seriously though HHKB > everything. I've slowly weeded out every non-HHKB layout keyboard over the years to the point where the five main keyboards I type on are all the exact same programmed layout. I still keep the old ones around out of sentimental attachment, but I can't think of the last time I used one other than to test its functionality/switch feel.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 12 August 2020, 16:01:51 »
If you're designing a keyboard, why would you want to be limited when you can do both?

You're making up these reasons but lets be honest, they're really weak. 
Going by that logic we should all be using full size, "just don't use the extra keys, why limit yourself".

I never said this was for everyone, the thread is rationalizing our preferences
I run Linux, my biggest use of the Winkey is to shift a window without grabbing the top bar, that's it. I have the left Winkey blocked off of the Filco and I disable it on the GMMK.

Is that the logic in your head?  So you equate the Winkey which doesn't change the keyboard shape or actual usage to that of Full size vs. TKL, etc?  That's a pretty big stretch and I'm sure you know it.
You said why "be limited", well if you're going to say shaving a key is limiting myself then the clear answer must be we should all use a full size because everything else is limiting. You can always turn off numlock right? I was throwing your logic back at you.

I don't get the problem, lot's of keyboards are winkeyless by choice.
Some do it due to hatred of the key, some don't need it, some prefer the looks, I just don't have a need for it. Had you asked me this 8  or 10 years ago, absolutely I would have demanded keeping it, it's really useful in Windows. It's less useful in Linux.

Actually the real reason is I just hate seeing that stupid icon. /S
That's not my logic because FULL size means a bigger keyboard which is something completely different.  Does the lack of windows key change the form factor of your keyboard?    If you're going to compare logic, at least have it make sense. 
Your argument before stemmed around accidentally hitting it during a gaming session...but there are probably better ways to rid yourself of that problem w/o removing the key if you have a choice.  That's the point.  You then made up a bunch of other lame reasons when the only real reason is what you just said...You don't like the way it looks - Done. 

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 12 August 2020, 16:30:00 »
What is happening? Are we the sort of blind consumer that keep buying products, even with severe and ugly quality issues? Are we blind GMK fanboys?

I wouldn't know. I rarely look at groupbuys and don't plan on ever owning a set of GMK caps when I can get some nice thick sets for $30-40, or just use random cheap/thin lasered caps. I don't care if they're random Chinesium with no branding if they fit and sound fine to me.

Offline Rob27shred

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Re: Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 12 August 2020, 16:42:45 »
For awhile I rationalized my switch preferences TBH. When I first got into the hobby ergo clears & V1 Zealios were all the rage, plus tactile switches seemed to be the best type for me after testing them, linear, & clicky switches loose. Also my first proper modern MKB was a Rosewill Apollo with MX browns so I was used to tactile switches before I started building too. So for the better part of 5 years I just would not give linear or clicky switches a fair shot. Sure I did some builds with both, but never really gave them the proper time or consideration before going back to tactiles.

Although recently with JWK/Durock flooding the market with affordable high quality linear MX switches, I finally decided to revisit linears properly. Well guess what, it turns out linears have proven to be my favorite type of MX switch. Ever since I rebuilt my E6.5 with Alpacas I have almost exclusively been using linear switches. I rebuilt my E6.5 about 6 months ago & have only used my tactile boards maybe a handful times since then. Also I swapped out the tactile switches for linear switches in all my favorite boards, then have been using linear switches exclusively on all my personal builds since then. Can't say exactly why I was so hung up on tactiles & wouldn't give any other switch type a fair shake for so long. I can say now that I have gave linears & clickies a proper fair shot, being honest to myself about how I feel about them, linears really seem to be much more comfortable than tactiles to me.

Bonus rationalization, spring weightings..... LOL! This was another thing I kinda arbitrarily settled on before giving a good range of weights a fair try. For the same time I was tactile addict, I also was a big proponent of heavily weighted springs. 80g bottom out was my favorite spring weighting & I was not afraid to go beyond that. For awhile I had a Vortex Pok3r with 150g Gat Clears in it :eek:! Thankfully when I decided I needed to give other switch types a honest try, I also figured it would be the time to give lighter weighted springs a try too. Same as finding I prefer linears to tactiles I found I actually prefer medium weighted springs the best (say 50g to 65g bottom out). With 63.5g progressive or slow curve springs being my absolute favorite weighting. So take it from me guys, sometimes it pays to step outside your comfort zones! :thumb:                                                                                       
« Last Edit: Wed, 12 August 2020, 16:45:09 by Rob27shred »