High end Kits

[10centNickle]

What are some high-end, premium kits?  Looking for something like the Mode Eighty.

[Fraaaan]

Most high end boards are sold in group buys and they'll be announced in the GB thread here on Geekhack.

[tp4tissue]

There's also nothing HIGH-END about NE keyboard.  It's like saying high end cup, or high end pencil.   Sure they'll sell you something with the moniker, but really think about it.

We are buying  decorative vanity items. Happy trails.

[yui]

There's also nothing HIGH-END about NE keyboard.  It's like saying high end cup, or high end pencil.   Sure they'll sell you something with the moniker, but really think about it.

We are buying  decorative vanity items. Happy trails.

at some point, yeah high-end become just cosmetic vanity, but i am sorry, 50$ mech is better than a logitec K120 all day on every aspect, i do agree that when you get into full alu boards the differences between 200$ and 600$ are more often than not purely cosmetic than functional, although isn't high-end all about that?

[tp4tissue]

at some point, yeah high-end become just cosmetic vanity, but i am sorry, 50$ mech is better than a logitec K120 all day on every aspect, i do agree that when you get into full alu boards the differences between 200$ and 600$ are more often than not purely cosmetic than functional, although isn't high-end all about that?

We're free to define high-end however we like, if Vanity pricing is the barometer for someone's personal definition, so be it.

But in terms of performance and engineering advantage, there is none. $25 mex are as good as $600 mex

[Topweasel]

at some point, yeah high-end become just cosmetic vanity, but i am sorry, 50$ mech is better than a logitec K120 all day on every aspect, i do agree that when you get into full alu boards the differences between 200$ and 600$ are more often than not purely cosmetic than functional, although isn't high-end all about that?

We're free to define high-end however we like, if Vanity pricing is the barometer for someone's personal definition, so be it.

But in terms of performance and engineering advantage, there is none. $25 mex are as good as $600 mex

I mean there are crappily done boards. A Red Dragon or Corsair PCBs, are poorly engineered with what seem like obviously attempts at saving money. Or you have the issues with early Ducky's with a well engineered PCB for the One 2 Mini, but still dealt with Chatter issues. While I get people's opinion on the affect of the performance specially when typing, you have Optical switches with quicker singnal activation, lack of debounce. We have controllers polling at 125hz to 1-8 MHz. That performance advantage even if the relative affect is weak. You have Hotswap vs soldered, one may affect longevity, other affects flexibility. But an engineering difference anyways.

Even in the customs there performance differences between different mount options, plate options, even foam when being compressed by plate/pcb. Some of them are more enjoyable but drag out the press allowing for pretty high performance for longer. Might not be exactly what you are getting at but still affects performance.

I get the point though and you tend not to need the ultra-premium keyboards to get most of these differences, though some of the more luxury of these engineering options require more expensive customs to get, specially as you start stacking them. A lot of these engineering choices are probably a personal preference then a perf one. In the long run these are still MX style switches attached to a PCB and or plate, and that makes any other changes pretty minimal. But there are certainly performance differences between a K552, Huntsman V2, and a Keycult. But maybe none worth mentioning between a Satisfaction 75 and GMMK Pro.

[tp4tissue]

Human reaction is between 100-300ms

The game engine when connected online DOES NOT even have latency stability in those ranges.

Even if you have the a MHz polling board, it will not perform better, because no Human UI is designed to REQUIRE or UTILIZE precision polling.


So even if these extra cycles are in the hardware,  It's amounts to nothing more than VANITY.  Like having 24 cores or 128GB of ram to play games on.

Not against anyone progressing themselves this way, but let's call it what it is.

[yui]

latency is additive, it is not the slowest absorb all, and 300ms is a very long time even for a human to react when trained on a particular game, some can be seen well below the 100ms, so you add all, 3ms server + 30ms travel + 3ms game engine + 12 to 60ms screen + 50 to 300ms human + fewms kbm (there is more than the polling rate in there, and way too complicated for me to bother calculating) + 3ms game engine + 30ms travel = 129 to 431ms with a good internet/LAN setup a big part of it is the human but much can be done to improve everywhere else, and plenty of peoples tried and succeeded in proving that reducing lag from the screen or kbm will help you in games, well at least in CS, most of the tests i saw were in 1.6 or GO.
so no a 50MHz polling will not make you instantly better than the default 500Hz but with proper training a few kHz polling do help.

[Maledicted]

What are some high-end, premium kits?  Looking for something like the Mode Eighty.

You probably want to start with what specific features you want. When things start getting that expensive, I close the tab and forget it exists.

I mean there are crappily done boards. A Red Dragon or Corsair PCBs, are poorly engineered with what seem like obviously attempts at saving money.

Have any examples of that? I have had an original Corsair K70 almost as long as it has existed and have used it for all of my gaming since I got it. I have stacks of K65s and K70s I bought dirt cheap used (because I love them) and every single one I have used works perfectly. My friend has one of those cheaper plastic cased TKLs they made and hasn't had a problem with it either.

Are there specific Red Dragon boards that there have been major problems with? I have a few cheap Amazon boards with Outemu switches and I haven't had any problems with any of them. I don't recall whether or not any of them were also sold by Red Dragon or not though, since a lot of those cheap boards are sold under various brands and names.

[Topweasel]

So I ordered a couple K552 for soldering practice. And have a first gen Strafe and a K68. This isn't elitest I still use several Duckies, a Durgod Hera, and 2 GK boards.

So the k552 the pcb is about bread board quality (really not joking), and they have split in the board that is if not actually, practically stapled together. During resoldering practice even after I got good at soldering and resoldering, so good I 7305 millmaxed the Durgod without issue, I couldn't desolder the K552 without pulling a pad or two.

The corsair pcb isn't a whole lot better, but is, but on top a weak pcb solution,  the case is full of anti-entry tactics that make servicing worse than just about any board. Also cheap tricks like practically pouring solder on connecting points to make removing the plate nearly impossible.

None of these mean a board is going to spontaneously fail. But will they survive abuse? Does their simple single layer boards mean an increase in chattering issues? Not sure. I am not saying you need a designer pcb, but there is a huge difference in visible quality on the Durgod and Duckies compared to the corsair and the corsairs cost just as much.

[Maledicted]

So I ordered a couple K552 for soldering practice. And have a first gen Strafe and a K68. This isn't elitest I still use several Duckies, a Durgod Hera, and 2 GK boards.

So the k552 the pcb is about bread board quality (really not joking), and they have split in the board that is if not actually, practically stapled together. During resoldering practice even after I got good at soldering and resoldering, so good I 7305 millmaxed the Durgod without issue, I couldn't desolder the K552 without pulling a pad or two.

The corsair pcb isn't a whole lot better, but is, but on top a weak pcb solution,  the case is full of anti-entry tactics that make servicing worse than just about any board. Also cheap tricks like practically pouring solder on connecting points to make removing the plate nearly impossible.

None of these mean a board is going to spontaneously fail. But will they survive abuse? Does their simple single layer boards mean an increase in chattering issues? Not sure. I am not saying you need a designer pcb, but there is a huge difference in visible quality on the Durgod and Duckies compared to the corsair and the corsairs cost just as much.

I lifted a pad on the one Unitek K151L I own that I desoldered all of the MX black switches in. It was the only keyboard I have ever lifted a pad on (besides a Matias controller I think, dinking around with modifying the layout with resistor swaps), and I have done a lot of switch swaps on OEM boards. If you don't know the Unitek K151L boards, they're basically F AT clones with MX switches, so they're all pretty aged at this point. Both I own worked perfectly when I got them (besides rusted-through diode legs and what looked like physically broken solder connections between the switch legs and the pad) after God-knows-how-many years of use. After having swapped not only the switches, but also all of the diodes since they were all originally routed through the switch housings anyway, it works perfectly. That PCB was literally the most poorly-built, overall quality-wise, that I have ever seen (Ironically, all of the rest of the keyboard is really well-made). It literally looked like I could start peeling traces off of the PCB with a flathead. That doesn't seem to have made much difference to the sands of time.

I switch swapped one Corsair K65 to box navies, and that went perfectly. I didn't notice any glaring issues with quality of the PCB. I don't recall whether or not the solder flowed easily without adding some nice leaded solder, if that matters.

Which Corsair board had excessive amounts of solder? I haven't noticed that on a K65 or K70, but that's all I care about (due to their aesthetics and heft). The ribbons that run to the media keys, etc, are irritating, yeah. I guess that doesn't even really bother me because I'm used to doing total overhauls of cheap Chromebooks on a daily basis.

I have had chatter and/or keys that weren't actuating on my workhorse gaming K70, if I haven't cleaned it at all in a few years with heavy use. Pulling the caps and cleaning the plate without further disassembly has been all that's necessary to resolve that. I have not had that problem on any of the others, probably partly because they're often visible in a relatively public place. Not sure if that's just the exposed plate and/or how neglected gaming boards typically are or what, but I have never had to do a repair on any of mine.

I don't own any Duckies (which I actually always thought of as overpriced for what you get, so I kind of consider it a premium thing, lol) or a Durgod. What is it about them that makes them any higher quality than a Corsair? All you've mentioned is fiddly disassembly and reassembly and large solder blobs.

[yui]

from what i read, ducky channel are considered higher end than razer because they do not scream gamer in your face, and are built more solidly, i do not think the same can be said about corsair, from what i saw and read they fall in between the 2, still very gamery but not as much and with a rather decent construction and less flex, and last time i checked higher end razers tend to be as expensive if not more than a comparable ducky, still i do believe the aesthetics have a lot to do with both companies status in the industry.

[Maledicted]

from what i read, ducky channel are considered higher end than razer because they do not scream gamer in your face, and are built more solidly, i do not think the same can be said about corsair, from what i saw and read they fall in between the 2, still very gamery but not as much and with a rather decent construction and less flex, and last time i checked higher end razers tend to be as expensive if not more than a comparable ducky, still i do believe the aesthetics have a lot to do with both companies status in the industry.

K65 and K70, in particular, have pretty thick plates. They don't flex any more than my Das Pro 4 with its thick aluminum top chassis. Both already are hard to get to noticeably flex at all, which is more than what can be said for most mass market boards to begin with, regardless of reputation for quality. I would have to compare them directly, since I just happened to have the Das sitting around nearby, but they may flex even less than the Das since they've got those aesthetic bends in the plate on the top and bottom. I don't put much emphasis on flex anyway though myself.

These Chinesium TKL cases from Aliexpress are as solid as a rock, that's for sure. Been dropping some KBParadise V80s into them.

Never used Razer before because I felt how light and cheap-feeling an $80 mouse from them a friend had was and that put a pretty bad taste in my mouth. If I were blindfolded, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that and one of those $5 specials where the marketing isn't even decipherable.

[Topweasel]

So I ordered a couple K552 for soldering practice. And have a first gen Strafe and a K68. This isn't elitest I still use several Duckies, a Durgod Hera, and 2 GK boards.

So the k552 the pcb is about bread board quality (really not joking), and they have split in the board that is if not actually, practically stapled together. During resoldering practice even after I got good at soldering and resoldering, so good I 7305 millmaxed the Durgod without issue, I couldn't desolder the K552 without pulling a pad or two.

The corsair pcb isn't a whole lot better, but is, but on top a weak pcb solution,  the case is full of anti-entry tactics that make servicing worse than just about any board. Also cheap tricks like practically pouring solder on connecting points to make removing the plate nearly impossible.

None of these mean a board is going to spontaneously fail. But will they survive abuse? Does their simple single layer boards mean an increase in chattering issues? Not sure. I am not saying you need a designer pcb, but there is a huge difference in visible quality on the Durgod and Duckies compared to the corsair and the corsairs cost just as much.

I lifted a pad on the one Unitek K151L I own that I desoldered all of the MX black switches in. It was the only keyboard I have ever lifted a pad on (besides a Matias controller I think, dinking around with modifying the layout with resistor swaps), and I have done a lot of switch swaps on OEM boards. If you don't know the Unitek K151L boards, they're basically F AT clones with MX switches, so they're all pretty aged at this point. Both I own worked perfectly when I got them (besides rusted-through diode legs and what looked like physically broken solder connections between the switch legs and the pad) after God-knows-how-many years of use. After having swapped not only the switches, but also all of the diodes since they were all originally routed through the switch housings anyway, it works perfectly. That PCB was literally the most poorly-built, overall quality-wise, that I have ever seen (Ironically, all of the rest of the keyboard is really well-made). It literally looked like I could start peeling traces off of the PCB with a flathead. That doesn't seem to have made much difference to the sands of time.

I switch swapped one Corsair K65 to box navies, and that went perfectly. I didn't notice any glaring issues with quality of the PCB. I don't recall whether or not the solder flowed easily without adding some nice leaded solder, if that matters.

Which Corsair board had excessive amounts of solder? I haven't noticed that on a K65 or K70, but that's all I care about (due to their aesthetics and heft). The ribbons that run to the media keys, etc, are irritating, yeah. I guess that doesn't even really bother me because I'm used to doing total overhauls of cheap Chromebooks on a daily basis.

I have had chatter and/or keys that weren't actuating on my workhorse gaming K70, if I haven't cleaned it at all in a few years with heavy use. Pulling the caps and cleaning the plate without further disassembly has been all that's necessary to resolve that. I have not had that problem on any of the others, probably partly because they're often visible in a relatively public place. Not sure if that's just the exposed plate and/or how neglected gaming boards typically are or what, but I have never had to do a repair on any of mine.

I don't own any Duckies (which I actually always thought of as overpriced for what you get, so I kind of consider it a premium thing, lol) or a Durgod. What is it about them that makes them any higher quality than a Corsair? All you've mentioned is fiddly disassembly and reassembly and large solder blobs.

The solder blobs was to lock the plate to the PCB, I believe it was the Strafe. 

I doubt at this point I could convince you. It's an overall build quality issue. Some of it might just make it look ugly, some of it may make the board more susceptible to humidity or ESD. The way the chasis is put together, the materials used. You talk of Ducky like its a luxury product. The Between the K68 and the Strife can't remember which I paid $100 and the other $120. For $120 (because I went silent switches, 110 normal cost) So basically the same cost. I got a full size Ducky One 2. With tasteful non-boring, high quality PBT key caps, a quality PCB, one that has onboard memory to save macro and key changes, for 6 layers, a case made not to sound hollow, or rattle when I type. I am not going to harp on the K552 too much, its a $40 Mech. Costs need to be cut. The corsairs on the other its about upping margin at the cost of quality. We can debate whether a company needs to hit a certain bar as long as it's unlikely to break. But if Ducky being one billionith the size of Corsair selling 1 tenth the boards can be profitable on the same sale price, to me that experience should be become the baseline of what to expect at that pricelevel. I can't believe the K552 could more reliable and easier for self service with a better PCB. So the point of the $20 mech being the same as a $60 mech still stands. But its not just price and that was my point with the Corsair, can be the same price and they aren't the same and those are different other than I am pressing a MX type switch, a signal is being received, and that gets interpreted as a character press that I think the original guy I was responding to was meaning.

[Maledicted]

So I ordered a couple K552 for soldering practice. And have a first gen Strafe and a K68. This isn't elitest I still use several Duckies, a Durgod Hera, and 2 GK boards.

So the k552 the pcb is about bread board quality (really not joking), and they have split in the board that is if not actually, practically stapled together. During resoldering practice even after I got good at soldering and resoldering, so good I 7305 millmaxed the Durgod without issue, I couldn't desolder the K552 without pulling a pad or two.

The corsair pcb isn't a whole lot better, but is, but on top a weak pcb solution,  the case is full of anti-entry tactics that make servicing worse than just about any board. Also cheap tricks like practically pouring solder on connecting points to make removing the plate nearly impossible.

None of these mean a board is going to spontaneously fail. But will they survive abuse? Does their simple single layer boards mean an increase in chattering issues? Not sure. I am not saying you need a designer pcb, but there is a huge difference in visible quality on the Durgod and Duckies compared to the corsair and the corsairs cost just as much.

I lifted a pad on the one Unitek K151L I own that I desoldered all of the MX black switches in. It was the only keyboard I have ever lifted a pad on (besides a Matias controller I think, dinking around with modifying the layout with resistor swaps), and I have done a lot of switch swaps on OEM boards. If you don't know the Unitek K151L boards, they're basically F AT clones with MX switches, so they're all pretty aged at this point. Both I own worked perfectly when I got them (besides rusted-through diode legs and what looked like physically broken solder connections between the switch legs and the pad) after God-knows-how-many years of use. After having swapped not only the switches, but also all of the diodes since they were all originally routed through the switch housings anyway, it works perfectly. That PCB was literally the most poorly-built, overall quality-wise, that I have ever seen (Ironically, all of the rest of the keyboard is really well-made). It literally looked like I could start peeling traces off of the PCB with a flathead. That doesn't seem to have made much difference to the sands of time.

I switch swapped one Corsair K65 to box navies, and that went perfectly. I didn't notice any glaring issues with quality of the PCB. I don't recall whether or not the solder flowed easily without adding some nice leaded solder, if that matters.

Which Corsair board had excessive amounts of solder? I haven't noticed that on a K65 or K70, but that's all I care about (due to their aesthetics and heft). The ribbons that run to the media keys, etc, are irritating, yeah. I guess that doesn't even really bother me because I'm used to doing total overhauls of cheap Chromebooks on a daily basis.

I have had chatter and/or keys that weren't actuating on my workhorse gaming K70, if I haven't cleaned it at all in a few years with heavy use. Pulling the caps and cleaning the plate without further disassembly has been all that's necessary to resolve that. I have not had that problem on any of the others, probably partly because they're often visible in a relatively public place. Not sure if that's just the exposed plate and/or how neglected gaming boards typically are or what, but I have never had to do a repair on any of mine.

I don't own any Duckies (which I actually always thought of as overpriced for what you get, so I kind of consider it a premium thing, lol) or a Durgod. What is it about them that makes them any higher quality than a Corsair? All you've mentioned is fiddly disassembly and reassembly and large solder blobs.

The solder blobs was to lock the plate to the PCB, I believe it was the Strafe.

Weird. Why would they even do that? To save a few cents on drilling and/or tapping for screws?

I doubt at this point I could convince you. It's an overall build quality issue. Some of it might just make it look ugly, some of it may make the board more susceptible to humidity or ESD. The way the chasis is put together, the materials used. You talk of Ducky like its a luxury product. The Between the K68 and the Strife can't remember which I paid $100 and the other $120.

I would never pay that much for a Strafe myself. I took one look at the plastic case, and the price, and immediately forgot it exists. I have never seen one at all in person. I really dislike the aesthetics as well, personally. I believe my friend has a K63. I tried to convince him to get an old K65 or something instead, but he did get the K63 used for like $40. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For $120 (because I went silent switches, 110 normal cost) So basically the same cost. I got a full size Ducky One 2. With tasteful non-boring, high quality PBT key caps, a quality PCB, one that has onboard memory to save macro and key changes, for 6 layers, a case made not to sound hollow, or rattle when I type.

I wouldn't pay that much for a Ducky One 2 either. Nothing (MX/modern) with a plastic case should be that expensive in my opinion (thus my previous sentiment), though decent caps help. I don't recall which Corsair boards even have the macro features. It isn't something I have any need for. K65 and K70 do not sound hollow or rattle when typing (I actually kind of miss the rattle of my Costar boards when I use them), since I don't think there's really a lot of open space in what there is that is plastic on the case for reverberation. If the Strafe does, then I'm sorry you purchased one if that's not what you prefer.

I am not going to harp on the K552 too much, its a $40 Mech. Costs need to be cut. The corsairs on the other its about upping margin at the cost of quality. We can debate whether a company needs to hit a certain bar as long as it's unlikely to break. But if Ducky being one billionith the size of Corsair selling 1 tenth the boards can be profitable on the same sale price, to me that experience should be become the baseline of what to expect at that pricelevel.

Again, Ducky seems overpriced to me for what you get (unless there's a better example than the Ducky One 2). I felt like an idiot even buying KBParadise V80s for how much they cost, in their cheap cases, but it was the fastest/easiest way to get a board with Matias switches that will fit in those Aliexpress TKL cases that I'm aware of.

Difference in priorities, I suppose. I don't care about caps and I don't care about extra goodie features. I just want something I could chuck off a roof onto pavement and keep typing on it.

[Topweasel]

So I ordered a couple K552 for soldering practice. And have a first gen Strafe and a K68. This isn't elitest I still use several Duckies, a Durgod Hera, and 2 GK boards.

So the k552 the pcb is about bread board quality (really not joking), and they have split in the board that is if not actually, practically stapled together. During resoldering practice even after I got good at soldering and resoldering, so good I 7305 millmaxed the Durgod without issue, I couldn't desolder the K552 without pulling a pad or two.

The corsair pcb isn't a whole lot better, but is, but on top a weak pcb solution,  the case is full of anti-entry tactics that make servicing worse than just about any board. Also cheap tricks like practically pouring solder on connecting points to make removing the plate nearly impossible.

None of these mean a board is going to spontaneously fail. But will they survive abuse? Does their simple single layer boards mean an increase in chattering issues? Not sure. I am not saying you need a designer pcb, but there is a huge difference in visible quality on the Durgod and Duckies compared to the corsair and the corsairs cost just as much.

I lifted a pad on the one Unitek K151L I own that I desoldered all of the MX black switches in. It was the only keyboard I have ever lifted a pad on (besides a Matias controller I think, dinking around with modifying the layout with resistor swaps), and I have done a lot of switch swaps on OEM boards. If you don't know the Unitek K151L boards, they're basically F AT clones with MX switches, so they're all pretty aged at this point. Both I own worked perfectly when I got them (besides rusted-through diode legs and what looked like physically broken solder connections between the switch legs and the pad) after God-knows-how-many years of use. After having swapped not only the switches, but also all of the diodes since they were all originally routed through the switch housings anyway, it works perfectly. That PCB was literally the most poorly-built, overall quality-wise, that I have ever seen (Ironically, all of the rest of the keyboard is really well-made). It literally looked like I could start peeling traces off of the PCB with a flathead. That doesn't seem to have made much difference to the sands of time.

I switch swapped one Corsair K65 to box navies, and that went perfectly. I didn't notice any glaring issues with quality of the PCB. I don't recall whether or not the solder flowed easily without adding some nice leaded solder, if that matters.

Which Corsair board had excessive amounts of solder? I haven't noticed that on a K65 or K70, but that's all I care about (due to their aesthetics and heft). The ribbons that run to the media keys, etc, are irritating, yeah. I guess that doesn't even really bother me because I'm used to doing total overhauls of cheap Chromebooks on a daily basis.

I have had chatter and/or keys that weren't actuating on my workhorse gaming K70, if I haven't cleaned it at all in a few years with heavy use. Pulling the caps and cleaning the plate without further disassembly has been all that's necessary to resolve that. I have not had that problem on any of the others, probably partly because they're often visible in a relatively public place. Not sure if that's just the exposed plate and/or how neglected gaming boards typically are or what, but I have never had to do a repair on any of mine.

I don't own any Duckies (which I actually always thought of as overpriced for what you get, so I kind of consider it a premium thing, lol) or a Durgod. What is it about them that makes them any higher quality than a Corsair? All you've mentioned is fiddly disassembly and reassembly and large solder blobs.

The solder blobs was to lock the plate to the PCB, I believe it was the Strafe.

Weird. Why would they even do that? To save a few cents on drilling and/or tapping for screws?

I doubt at this point I could convince you. It's an overall build quality issue. Some of it might just make it look ugly, some of it may make the board more susceptible to humidity or ESD. The way the chasis is put together, the materials used. You talk of Ducky like its a luxury product. The Between the K68 and the Strife can't remember which I paid $100 and the other $120.

I would never pay that much for a Strafe myself. I took one look at the plastic case, and the price, and immediately forgot it exists. I have never seen one at all in person. I really dislike the aesthetics as well, personally. I believe my friend has a K63. I tried to convince him to get an old K65 or something instead, but he did get the K63 used for like $40. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For $120 (because I went silent switches, 110 normal cost) So basically the same cost. I got a full size Ducky One 2. With tasteful non-boring, high quality PBT key caps, a quality PCB, one that has onboard memory to save macro and key changes, for 6 layers, a case made not to sound hollow, or rattle when I type.

I wouldn't pay that much for a Ducky One 2 either. Nothing (MX/modern) with a plastic case should be that expensive in my opinion (thus my previous sentiment), though decent caps help. I don't recall which Corsair boards even have the macro features. It isn't something I have any need for. K65 and K70 do not sound hollow or rattle when typing (I actually kind of miss the rattle of my Costar boards when I use them), since I don't think there's really a lot of open space in what there is that is plastic on the case for reverberation. If the Strafe does, then I'm sorry you purchased one if that's not what you prefer.

I am not going to harp on the K552 too much, its a $40 Mech. Costs need to be cut. The corsairs on the other its about upping margin at the cost of quality. We can debate whether a company needs to hit a certain bar as long as it's unlikely to break. But if Ducky being one billionith the size of Corsair selling 1 tenth the boards can be profitable on the same sale price, to me that experience should be become the baseline of what to expect at that pricelevel.

Again, Ducky seems overpriced to me for what you get (unless there's a better example than the Ducky One 2). I felt like an idiot even buying KBParadise V80s for how much they cost, in their cheap cases, but it was the fastest/easiest way to get a board with Matias switches that will fit in those Aliexpress TKL cases that I'm aware of.

Difference in priorities, I suppose. I don't care about caps and I don't care about extra goodie features. I just want something I could chuck off a roof onto pavement and keep typing on it.

1. Pretty much that. I can't remember how much screws I had to deal with but they were almost all case to case. Which they felt the need to tab the hell out of the as well (as well as making those tabs not very pliable so it was hard as hell not break them.

2. This was before I really got into mechs. It was also a time when only corsair had access to the Silent Reds. So I got the one reasonable one they had with Silent switches. Then decided I didn't want to use a non-mech as my primary work board, so I took that to work and got the spill resistant with normal Reds for home. There wasn't any other solution for a silent MX based mech back then.

3. I mean the $90-$120 seems like the sweet spot for full sized plastic keyboards. I can see saying $100 is to much for an off the shelf board in general. But seems like without going no-name about what to expect to pay. The advantages to the Ducky is it is highly customizable, well built, and for a plastic construction still feels dense and solid. People consider Model M's to be the "The" mechanical keyboard, but that in its day was as expensive and had a mostly plastic case.

4. I get that. Some people priotize, feel, sound, functionality, hell colors. Some of those are more lux features than other. But again you comment on chucking it onto a roof or pavement. A Corsair could pass that, a Ducky too with a little cosmetic damage. But the type, thickness of the plastic on the K552 would cause the case to break. You could get a keyboard, probably cheaper than the ones mentioned by me that could do it fine, but you are still paying more for it. Which is my point. If you are looking at a keyboard soley as a system for taking input from the leaf contact of a MX style switch, sure when broken down to that level a $20 Mech and $600 is the same. But their is performance and engineering that does make some boards better than others that doesn't end at just being luxury choice. The diminishing returns ramps incredibly quickly, but its still there.

[Maledicted]

2. This was before I really got into mechs. It was also a time when only corsair had access to the Silent Reds. So I got the one reasonable one they had with Silent switches. Then decided I didn't want to use a non-mech as my primary work board, so I took that to work and got the spill resistant with normal Reds for home. There wasn't any other solution for a silent MX based mech back then.

That makes sense. I never liked the idea of exclusivity deals for certain switches, but they were probably a large part of why we have those switches today as well.

3. I mean the $90-$120 seems like the sweet spot for full sized plastic keyboards. I can see saying $100 is to much for an off the shelf board in general. But seems like without going no-name about what to expect to pay. The advantages to the Ducky is it is highly customizable, well built, and for a plastic construction still feels dense and solid. People consider Model M's to be the "The" mechanical keyboard, but that in its day was as expensive and had a mostly plastic case.

That's really the crux of where I was going with this. In the brands that I know are generally accepted by the community, at the prices that they come in at, I haven't tried a single one that offers me anything that would convince me to purchase it over a cheaper board without the name recognition (or does have name recognition but may have an undeserved negative reputation in this community).

I also don't buy into the hype surrounding the Model M's ruggedness. To the contrary, I consider it an inherently terrible design due to the plastic rivets that hold the plate sandwich together. There are $40 Outemu boards with aluminum plates that I feel more confident about enduring abuse than a Model M that hasn't been painstakingly bolt/screw modded.

4. I get that. Some people priotize, feel, sound, functionality, hell colors. Some of those are more lux features than other. But again you comment on chucking it onto a roof or pavement. A Corsair could pass that, a Ducky too with a little cosmetic damage. But the type, thickness of the plastic on the K552 would cause the case to break. You could get a keyboard, probably cheaper than the ones mentioned by me that could do it fine, but you are still paying more for it. Which is my point. If you are looking at a keyboard soley as a system for taking input from the leaf contact of a MX style switch, sure when broken down to that level a $20 Mech and $600 is the same. But their is performance and engineering that does make some boards better than others that doesn't end at just being luxury choice. The diminishing returns ramps incredibly quickly, but its still there.

I can't comment on the K552 specifically. Like you said, at that price point, it doesn't really matter if it isn't just as durable as a board that costs 2x+ as much.

I actually really dislike most MX switches, and clones.

Sure, there's a difference between the ultra cheap boards and reasonably good ones once you start getting over $100. I have actually paid close to $600 for multiple boards ... and have very nearly bought an IBM beam spring more times than I would like to think about. I wouldn't get anywhere near those numbers for something modern though myself.

[Leslieann]

Waaaaah bolt mod, plastic rivets...
It's 30+ YEARS OLD

Yes, your pretty little MX may still be functional in 30 years but the Model M has already done it, there is no question it can live that long. And who cares if your MX does? No one cared if the Model M lasted that long and personally why would you want to use the same keyboard 30 years later? I prefer my technology to get better over time. The fact that the Model M is still relevant is not only a testament to it's reliability but also how bad the keyboard industry has failed to improve anything.

[yui]

Waaaaah bolt mod, plastic rivets...
It's 30+ YEARS OLD

Yes, your pretty little MX may still be functional in 30 years but the Model M has already done it, there is no question it can live that long. And who cares if your MX does? No one cared if the Model M lasted that long and personally why would you want to use the same keyboard 30 years later? I prefer my technology to get better over time. The fact that the Model M is still relevant is not only a testament to it's reliability but also how bad the keyboard industry has failed to improve anything.

part of it may be that it is the noisiest keyboard still manufactured, between streamers and office uses clicky boards have become rather unpopular, and can you make a decent keyboard that make neither clack nor click? it has been maybe now 2 decades that the industry is trying to innovate in that direction, and also trying to keep everything mx compatible, and as small as possible, where the M also fails. given the current constraint on the industry of: Low noise, Low profile, low price and RGB above all else i wager they made a decent job out of innovation. although i'd love to see a more modern design replace the M too

[Topweasel]

2. This was before I really got into mechs. It was also a time when only corsair had access to the Silent Reds. So I got the one reasonable one they had with Silent switches. Then decided I didn't want to use a non-mech as my primary work board, so I took that to work and got the spill resistant with normal Reds for home. There wasn't any other solution for a silent MX based mech back then.

That makes sense. I never liked the idea of exclusivity deals for certain switches, but they were probably a large part of why we have those switches today as well.

3. I mean the $90-$120 seems like the sweet spot for full sized plastic keyboards. I can see saying $100 is to much for an off the shelf board in general. But seems like without going no-name about what to expect to pay. The advantages to the Ducky is it is highly customizable, well built, and for a plastic construction still feels dense and solid. People consider Model M's to be the "The" mechanical keyboard, but that in its day was as expensive and had a mostly plastic case.

That's really the crux of where I was going with this. In the brands that I know are generally accepted by the community, at the prices that they come in at, I haven't tried a single one that offers me anything that would convince me to purchase it over a cheaper board without the name recognition (or does have name recognition but may have an undeserved negative reputation in this community).

I also don't buy into the hype surrounding the Model M's ruggedness. To the contrary, I consider it an inherently terrible design due to the plastic rivets that hold the plate sandwich together. There are $40 Outemu boards with aluminum plates that I feel more confident about enduring abuse than a Model M that hasn't been painstakingly bolt/screw modded.

4. I get that. Some people priotize, feel, sound, functionality, hell colors. Some of those are more lux features than other. But again you comment on chucking it onto a roof or pavement. A Corsair could pass that, a Ducky too with a little cosmetic damage. But the type, thickness of the plastic on the K552 would cause the case to break. You could get a keyboard, probably cheaper than the ones mentioned by me that could do it fine, but you are still paying more for it. Which is my point. If you are looking at a keyboard soley as a system for taking input from the leaf contact of a MX style switch, sure when broken down to that level a $20 Mech and $600 is the same. But their is performance and engineering that does make some boards better than others that doesn't end at just being luxury choice. The diminishing returns ramps incredibly quickly, but its still there.

I can't comment on the K552 specifically. Like you said, at that price point, it doesn't really matter if it isn't just as durable as a board that costs 2x+ as much.

I actually really dislike most MX switches, and clones.

Sure, there's a difference between the ultra cheap boards and reasonably good ones once you start getting over $100. I have actually paid close to $600 for multiple boards ... and have very nearly bought an IBM beam spring more times than I would like to think about. I wouldn't get anywhere near those numbers for something modern though myself.

1.Neither do I. Honestly it bothered me a lot after the fact. It took so long after the exclusivity deal to end before I could get a new board with them. I get that Cherry is basically doing nothing for decades and Corsair funded them doing the first major new development in switches before the patents expired. But think of how many people didn't buy boards with their switches because they held them off. It was also an easy part for the clones to go after once they had a chance.

2. Honestly I do understand it. I am a Q-Tip or Kleenex guy. My Girlfriend is a I don't know what to call them ear swab or tissue person. I'll spend the extra little money for the peace of mind that an identifiable company with global support. I do think the plastic rivets was a thing later in the IBM Model M's. But I get that, I just meant that the case of the keyboard had always been plastic, but due to several characteristics including the choice of plastic and thickness, you would almost think it was mad out of metal. Certainly would take someone out like one.

3. I don't mind MX. I like linear switches for the most part. And MX switches are pretty much bind free for forever. But I get it, older switches seemed to be built to survive nuclear blasts and I am all over the place. I have a cheaper GK61, I made it expensive afterwards. I still get off the shelf boards. I build my own. I recently spent over $500 to get a modern take on a Model F. There are spots to spend and not. I am just more likely to get a Ducky or a Leopold than no-name, and even if its just making sure you get fully the feel you want to maximize your performance which isn't available on retail and certainly cheaper boards a custom (which his hard to keep cheap) has its value, and what I was getting at originally, was those values do have engineering differences and performance differences even if they are small. It's not all luxury choices. 

[Maledicted]

Waaaaah bolt mod, plastic rivets...
It's 30+ YEARS OLD

Yes, your pretty little MX may still be functional in 30 years but the Model M has already done it, there is no question it can live that long. And who cares if your MX does? No one cared if the Model M lasted that long and personally why would you want to use the same keyboard 30 years later? I prefer my technology to get better over time. The fact that the Model M is still relevant is not only a testament to it's reliability but also how bad the keyboard industry has failed to improve anything.

I'm not too worried about time, just fragility. My 30+-year-old boards of any other design don't need bolt mods, ever, because they're designed better structurally. I can also take just about any other board down completely more easily as well, since that's another thing people seem to harp on with everything except for the Model M. You need a nut driver/socket that just barely fits the screw holes, and then good luck servicing anything at all once you're in without going all in with a screw or bolt mod. $15 laptop keyboards are assembled similarly ... except they don't have 5 pounds worth of weight to throw around on those poor rivets.

I don't see anybody improving any boards/switch types I like anytime soon, though it would depend on your meaning behind the technology getting better over time.

1.Neither do I. Honestly it bothered me a lot after the fact. It took so long after the exclusivity deal to end before I could get a new board with them. I get that Cherry is basically doing nothing for decades and Corsair funded them doing the first major new development in switches before the patents expired. But think of how many people didn't buy boards with their switches because they held them off. It was also an easy part for the clones to go after once they had a chance.

I think that's the only motivation Cherry really had to change anything at the time. They've got guaranteed steady cash flows in POS and industrial interests. A deal with another big company probably made a lot more sense than just fronting the time and money to try something new and hoping it catches on.

2. Honestly I do understand it. I am a Q-Tip or Kleenex guy. My Girlfriend is a I don't know what to call them ear swab or tissue person. I'll spend the extra little money for the peace of mind that an identifiable company with global support.

I don't put much stock in customer support of any kind, although there's certainly some value to it in the rare cases in which you need it and something is actually still under warranty and the company (regardless of reputation) bothers to honor it.

I do think the plastic rivets was a thing later in the IBM Model M's. But I get that, I just meant that the case of the keyboard had always been plastic, but due to several characteristics including the choice of plastic and thickness, you would almost think it was mad out of metal. Certainly would take someone out like one.

All Model Ms have plastic rivets. The plate that they're riveted to can be pretty beefy, and so can the plastic components. The same is the case for plenty of other boards from the period that don't have plastic rivets.

3. I don't mind MX. I like linear switches for the most part. And MX switches are pretty much bind free for forever. But I get it, older switches seemed to be built to survive nuclear blasts and I am all over the place. I have a cheaper GK61, I made it expensive afterwards. I still get off the shelf boards. I build my own. I recently spent over $500 to get a modern take on a Model F. There are spots to spend and not. I am just more likely to get a Ducky or a Leopold than no-name, and even if its just making sure you get fully the feel you want to maximize your performance which isn't available on retail and certainly cheaper boards a custom (which his hard to keep cheap) has its value, and what I was getting at originally, was those values do have engineering differences and performance differences even if they are small. It's not all luxury choices.

I like the mechanisms of older switches, because I like clickies, and the feel and sound of clickies can vary a lot based on the mechanism ... most of which are no longer made. If I were a big fan of linears, it would make a lot less of a difference to me. There are plenty of old mechanisms that were terrible, in all regards.

New production F77s are a perfect example. I fear to fathom how many of those I will buy before production ends.