Ergo Clear vs Topre

[tp4tissue]

right all i'm saying is the line between "scratchy" and "tactile" is that they're the SAME sensation , with the exception that scratchy is LESS pronounced enough to be Tactile.

Think of a perfect plastic piston head and a cylinder which becomes slightly narrow in the centre. Pushing and pulling the piston head would have very different properties in an oiled vs non-oiled arrangement. They would both fit the definition of tactile, but one would definitely be perceived as "scratchy" or "sticky".

ah.. you can't throw up a description like that without mspaint.. i can picture most of it but how is that tactile, are you pulling against vacuum?

[Trev]

right all i'm saying is the line between "scratchy" and "tactile" is that they're the SAME sensation , with the exception that scratchy is LESS pronounced enough to be Tactile.

Think of a perfect plastic piston head and a cylinder which becomes slightly narrow in the centre. Pushing and pulling the piston head would have very different properties in an oiled vs non-oiled arrangement. They would both fit the definition of tactile, but one would definitely be perceived as "scratchy" or "sticky".

ah.. you can't throw up a description like that without mspaint.. i can picture most of it but how is that tactile, are you pulling against vacuum?

No perfect vacuum seals for this example. We're talking about keyboard mechanics

It's possible to have a very similar resistance profile, but still feel quite different with and without a lubricant. Something being "tactile" doesn't imply or inherently include "scratchyness" and stick-slip type properties, but doesn't exclude them either.

[tp4tissue]

right all i'm saying is the line between "scratchy" and "tactile" is that they're the SAME sensation , with the exception that scratchy is LESS pronounced enough to be Tactile.

Think of a perfect plastic piston head and a cylinder which becomes slightly narrow in the centre. Pushing and pulling the piston head would have very different properties in an oiled vs non-oiled arrangement. They would both fit the definition of tactile, but one would definitely be perceived as "scratchy" or "sticky".

ah.. you can't throw up a description like that without mspaint.. i can picture most of it but how is that tactile, are you pulling against vacuum?

No perfect vacuum seals for this example. We're talking about keyboard mechanics

It's possible to have a very similar resistance profile, but still feel quite different with and without a lubricant. Something being "tactile" doesn't imply or inherently include "scratchyness" and stick-slip type properties, but doesn't exclude them either.

um.. i don't want to argue the word tactile with you.. LOL

I used tactile to mean, the BUMP feeling vs the scratchy feeling "non-tactile"

this is an oversight on my part, so I'll use bump from now on..

BUMP and Scratchy is the same sensation, with varying frequency.

[rknize]

The "scratchiness" of the tactile switches seems to mainly come from the stem guides.  You can feel it on linear switches too, especially those with lighter springs (reds).  The tactile bump feels the most scratchy because that is when the peak side-load on the guide occurs.  It doesn't seem to come from the friction between the bump on the stem and the leaf spring, which explains why lubing that spot seems to make no difference in the feel of the switch.  Lubing the stem guides helps the most.

So by smoothing out the action between the stem and the guide, the tactile bump itself seems to become more obvious.  In some ways it reminds me of this Topre. 

[tp4tissue]

The "scratchiness" of the tactile switches seems to mainly come from the stem guides.  You can feel it on linear switches too, especially those with lighter springs (reds).  The tactile bump feels the most scratchy because that is when the peak side-load on the guide occurs.  It doesn't seem to come from the friction between the bump on the stem and the leaf spring, which explains why lubing that spot seems to make no difference in the feel of the switch.  Lubing the stem guides helps the most.

So by smoothing out the action between the stem and the guide, the tactile bump itself seems to become more obvious.  In some ways it reminds me of this Topre. 

this seems to happen on the bottom the most.. I've lubed the sides, but it doesn't help that much.. because after a while even high vis' lube just gets pushed to the middle, and you see a clear part where the contact is being made without any lube on the corners of the side channel..

this is why I've remained unconvinced of lubing switches.. maybe a hard lube.. pencil lead for example. but obviously not that cuz of the conductivity.

[TheQsanity]

Who has a Quickfire Rapid, Poker, and/or scale?

[daerid]

Man I hate reading this forum on Tapatalk, cuz then I end up seeing TP's posts, and that makes me sad.

There's a common Internet idiom about trolls and feeding them. Probably a good idea to heed that one. Anybody who's been here for more than a few days has got him pegged, so just ignore him, and we'll all thank you for it :-)

[klxw]

mechanical != scratchy

I mean mostly harsh bottoming out, and undamped upstroke.

Exactly what I thought when I tried some keyboards with Cherry MX switches. Everywhere on the internet everyone was talking about how awesome MX switches were, but no one mentioned the ultra harsh feeling when bottoming out? Weird.

[Trev]

mechanical != scratchy

I mean mostly harsh bottoming out, and undamped upstroke.

Exactly what I thought when I tried some keyboards with Cherry MX switches. Everywhere on the internet everyone was talking about how awesome MX switches were, but no one mentioned the ultra harsh feeling when bottoming out? Weird.

It feels like Cherry is too comfortable with their market position, there's been no innovation or progress in switch design for a very long time. The Cherry landing is simply plastic smashing against plastic, totally un-dampened. Surely they could start adding new models with some minor refinements and tighter tolerances?  It would be a clever move considering the growing enthusiast niche.

[rknize]

mechanical != scratchy

I mean mostly harsh bottoming out, and undamped upstroke.

Exactly what I thought when I tried some keyboards with Cherry MX switches. Everywhere on the internet everyone was talking about how awesome MX switches were, but no one mentioned the ultra harsh feeling when bottoming out? Weird.

It feels like Cherry is too comfortable with their market position, there's been no innovation or progress in switch design for a very long time. The Cherry landing is simply plastic smashing against plastic, totally un-dampened. Surely they could start adding new models with some minor refinements and tighter tolerances?  It would be a clever move considering the growing enthusiast niche.

I'll drink to that.  Cherry's production volume seems to have been bought-out for some time thanks to these gaming and mainstream keyboards.  Don't get me wrong; it's great to see "normal" mechanical keyboards in places like NewEgg and even some brick-and-mortar stores.

I wonder if we'll see anything new on the "Alps" front, given Cherry's monopoly on that design and the current shortages.  Perhaps we'll see more come out of Matias and the like.

While I am not totally in love with Topre, I hope to see some interesting form factors come out going forward.  This new high-profile Topre switch is a sign that they are still doing a little R&D.

[002]

There's nothing new about the Hi-Pro switch really.
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Hatsuko_Electronics_HEKB01
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Nissho_KB106DE

[Trev]

mechanical != scratchy

I mean mostly harsh bottoming out, and undamped upstroke.

Exactly what I thought when I tried some keyboards with Cherry MX switches. Everywhere on the internet everyone was talking about how awesome MX switches were, but no one mentioned the ultra harsh feeling when bottoming out? Weird.

It feels like Cherry is too comfortable with their market position, there's been no innovation or progress in switch design for a very long time. The Cherry landing is simply plastic smashing against plastic, totally un-dampened. Surely they could start adding new models with some minor refinements and tighter tolerances?  It would be a clever move considering the growing enthusiast niche.

I'll drink to that.  Cherry's production volume seems to have been bought-out for some time thanks to these gaming and mainstream keyboards.  Don't get me wrong; it's great to see "normal" mechanical keyboards in places like NewEgg and even some brick-and-mortar stores.

I wonder if we'll see anything new on the "Alps" front, given Cherry's monopoly on that design and the current shortages.  Perhaps we'll see more come out of Matias and the like.

While I am not totally in love with Topre, I hope to see some interesting form factors come out going forward.  This new high-profile Topre switch is a sign that they are still doing a little R&D.

I don't personally understand the HiPro thing at all. Seems like a product that almost nobody really needs or ever wanted. I've also heard that HiPro switches aren't great to type on.

It seems like Topre would see much better success in embracing Bluetooth as an option across their range, PBT spacebars, new designs in 60%ish form factors, lower profile "modern" keys that are still sculpted, etc. Topre is also guilty of being fairly complacent with their position and not really innovating (imo).

I'd love to see more companies going for minimal, lower-profile designs that still retain decent typing ergonomics. Most outsiders see our keyboards as "old fashioned" looking or "retro". I think chiclet keys are a terrible choice, but it couldn't hurt to build some leaner/meaner looking models.

[tp4tissue]

mechanical != scratchy

I mean mostly harsh bottoming out, and undamped upstroke.

Exactly what I thought when I tried some keyboards with Cherry MX switches. Everywhere on the internet everyone was talking about how awesome MX switches were, but no one mentioned the ultra harsh feeling when bottoming out? Weird.

It feels like Cherry is too comfortable with their market position, there's been no innovation or progress in switch design for a very long time. The Cherry landing is simply plastic smashing against plastic, totally un-dampened. Surely they could start adding new models with some minor refinements and tighter tolerances?  It would be a clever move considering the growing enthusiast niche.

I'll drink to that.  Cherry's production volume seems to have been bought-out for some time thanks to these gaming and mainstream keyboards.  Don't get me wrong; it's great to see "normal" mechanical keyboards in places like NewEgg and even some brick-and-mortar stores.

I wonder if we'll see anything new on the "Alps" front, given Cherry's monopoly on that design and the current shortages.  Perhaps we'll see more come out of Matias and the like.

While I am not totally in love with Topre, I hope to see some interesting form factors come out going forward.  This new high-profile Topre switch is a sign that they are still doing a little R&D.

I don't personally understand the HiPro thing at all. Seems like a product that almost nobody really needs or ever wanted. I've also heard that HiPro switches aren't great to type on.

It seems like Topre would see much better success in embracing Bluetooth as an option across their range, PBT spacebars, new designs in 60%ish form factors, lower profile "modern" keys that are still sculpted, etc. Topre is also guilty of being fairly complacent with their position and not really innovating (imo).

I'd love to see more companies going for minimal, lower-profile designs that still retain decent typing ergonomics. Most outsiders see our keyboards as "old fashioned" looking or "retro". I think chiclet keys are a terrible choice, but it couldn't hurt to build some leaner/meaner looking models.

mainstream japanese engineers are obsessed with uniformity/ perfection.. So thats why pbt spacebars are a no-no. they just can't make straight ones..

[Michael]

mainstream japanese engineers are obsessed with uniformity/ perfection.. So thats why pbt spacebars are a no-no. they just can't make straight ones..

If imsto can make a straight PBT bar, so can the Japanese. Maybe they just don't see it as an important issue.

[Trev]

mainstream japanese engineers are obsessed with uniformity/ perfection.. So thats why pbt spacebars are a no-no. they just can't make straight ones..

If imsto can make a straight PBT bar, so can the Japanese. Maybe they just don't see it as an important issue.

I wish they'd address this. Having the fairly refined sounding <thock thock thock> Topre PBT's interrupted by the all too familiar (cheap sounding) ABS spacebar is a bit jarring

They should also consider improving the noisy space bar design and stabilizers while they're at it. Spacebar is the worst part of the Topre typing experience (imo).

[Michael]

I wish they'd address this. Having the fairly refined sounding <thock thock thock> Topre PBT's interrupted by the all too familiar (cheap sounding) ABS spacebar is a bit jarring

They should also consider improving the noisy space bar design and stabilizers while they're at it. Spacebar is the worst part of the Topre typing experience (imo).

The space bar issue isn't as bad on the Type-S. The only thing that bothers me about it, is how shiny it gets.

[Trev]

Agreed, my Type-S space has far less rattle to it. They've also added those little landing pads on the HHKB spacebar. You'd need to slam it fairly hard to contact them, but it's a nice touch which isn't on the RF boards.

Part of the issue on the RF is that the stabilizer tabs don't lock in firmly enough. If you use something like the thick EK "mech lube" on these it temporarily resolves much of the spacebar noise.

[TheQsanity]

Man I hate reading this forum on Tapatalk, cuz then I end up seeing TP's posts, and that makes me sad.

There's a common Internet idiom about trolls and feeding them. Probably a good idea to heed that one. Anybody who's been here for more than a few days has got him pegged, so just ignore him, and we'll all thank you for it :-)

I tend to not read long spam.

[khaangaaroo]

Okay. Has anyone weighed their Topre 10keyless or HHKB? What would their weight be comparing to something like a Quickfire Rapid or Poker?

Are Topre noticeably lighter or heavier then a Cherry keyboard.

Realforce 86u with stock PBT key caps, without cable: 2lbs 7.4oz (1,120 grams)
Quickfire Rapid with thin ABS doubleshots: 1lb 15.8oz (900 grams)

[davkol]

mechanical != scratchy

I mean mostly harsh bottoming out, and undamped upstroke.

Exactly what I thought when I tried some keyboards with Cherry MX switches. Everywhere on the internet everyone was talking about how awesome MX switches were, but no one mentioned the ultra harsh feeling when bottoming out? Weird.

Maybe that's why so many people are obsessed with not bottoming out. It is mentioned from time to time, but I don't think it's a bug—rather a feature. It's the same with generic ALPS clones and most vintage switches. Solutions such as dampened Matias ALPS are sometimes considered mushy.

[tp4tissue]

bottom-out is such a none issue on any switch type given that you can oring the keycaps.

[Trev]

mechanical != scratchy

I mean mostly harsh bottoming out, and undamped upstroke.

Exactly what I thought when I tried some keyboards with Cherry MX switches. Everywhere on the internet everyone was talking about how awesome MX switches were, but no one mentioned the ultra harsh feeling when bottoming out? Weird.

Maybe that's why so many people are obsessed with not bottoming out. It is mentioned from time to time, but I don't think it's a bug—rather a feature. It's the same with generic ALPS clones and most vintage switches. Solutions such as dampened Matias ALPS are sometimes considered mushy.

It's a bug

I finally scored an AEKII w/ALPS in good condition and was pretty disappointed with the switch feel. Heavy and mushy. I remembered them being so much better.
Maybe they were never that great to begin with? There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the switches themselves, they're not gunked up or anything like that. It seems hardly used aside from case yellowing.

Back the RF spacebar issue; I've just finished putting mine back together. Some very thin rubber landing pads + generous krytox 205 on the stabilisers has it feeling way better. I'm not sure how long it'll last, but right now it's all <thock> with no rattle or clack. There's also no mushyness from the 205 once it worked in.

[Aranair]

Just to chip in... Although I'm pretty happy with a HHKB at work (just bought another to use at home), I honestly can't say that it's that much better than MX switches..

I've used a filco blue for awhile, then brown poker for about a year before switching to a hhkb. (I've also had a hhkb for 1 month during the 1year with the poker, but sold it.)

And I'm now buying blue mx switches to change my poker. Generally though, I'll say I am rather undecided between topre and mx brown/blues and am not convinced either is better than the other. (And I love the 60% size so RF isn't really an option lol)

[davkol]

mechanical != scratchy

I mean mostly harsh bottoming out, and undamped upstroke.

Exactly what I thought when I tried some keyboards with Cherry MX switches. Everywhere on the internet everyone was talking about how awesome MX switches were, but no one mentioned the ultra harsh feeling when bottoming out? Weird.

Maybe that's why so many people are obsessed with not bottoming out. It is mentioned from time to time, but I don't think it's a bug—rather a feature. It's the same with generic ALPS clones and most vintage switches. Solutions such as dampened Matias ALPS are sometimes considered mushy.

It's a bug

From the ergonomic point of view, it's not really that much of an issue, because you don't have to (and shouldn't) bottom out. I think the optimal solution would be increasing force required to bottom out. Something like Fujitsu Peerless or Cherry MY, or Cherry MX Blue w/ soft-landing pads work for me this way. MLs and clears are close to that, but need longer key travel IMO.

For the upstroke, thick keycaps appear to be at least some workaround.

[noisyturtle]

Personally the feel between the Topre I tried, albeit rather briefly but right next to a rubber dome Logitech board, felt too similar to justify the cost. Now as I charge my flame shield I will only say that I'm a Cherry man because  1)Cherry switches feel drastically different than the crappy boards I've typed on my whole life  2)They come in many flavors so you can always switch it up and get completely different feels Cherry to Cherry  3)They are just hands down easier to mod and tinker with and I am a big fan of that customization component. I wouldn't buy a Topre without trying one first to make absolutely sure your $300 is going where you want it to. If you try it and love it, more power to you.

[tp4tissue]

Personally the feel between the Topre I tried, albeit rather briefly but right next to a rubber dome Logitech board, felt too similar to justify the cost. Now as I charge my flame shield I will only say that I'm a Cherry man because  1)Cherry switches feel drastically different than the crappy boards I've typed on my whole life  2)They come in many flavors so you can always switch it up and get completely different feels Cherry to Cherry  3)They are just hands down easier to mod and tinker with and I am a big fan of that customization component. I wouldn't buy a Topre without trying one first to make absolutely sure your $300 is going where you want it to. If you try it and love it, more power to you.

Flame shield indeed required..

but yea. i felt the same way when I first got my 87u... underwhelming...

[VesperSAINT]

Hmmm. Looks like I have new reading material for today

[MJ45]

Let me start by saying I'm a keyboard enthusiast and anyone who is a GH member is also. That being said I have owned and tried my fair share of keyboards. Topre switch keyboards seem to generate a lot of opinions, pros and cons. But only one that is important to me and anyone considering one is their own, by using one and seeing if it is right you. I purchased a HHKB Pro 2 and found that I prefer the Topre based switches the most. I felt that the HHKB would be easy to sell if I didn't like it, but I do so much that I got a Reaforce 87u 55g. Between the the two is what I use 95% of the time, the 87u for desktop use and HHKB for my laptop. I still prefer the Cherry MX based keyboards for gaming use. In my opinion any enthusiast owes it to themselves to find out. In my case I would have saved a bunch of money if had earlier in my quest for my perfect keyboard(s). But I have no regrets, some love them and some don't but you don't have much lose to find out in my opinion. 

[daerid]

Let me start by saying I'm a keyboard enthusiast and anyone who is a GH member is also. That being said I have owned and tried my fair share of keyboards. Topre switch keyboards seem to generate a lot of opinions, pros and cons. But only one that is important to me and anyone considering one is their own, by using one and seeing if it is right you. I purchased a HHKB Pro 2 and found that I prefer the Topre based switches the most. I felt that the HHKB would be easy to sell if I didn't like it, but I do so much that I got a Reaforce 87u 55g. Between the the two is what I use 95% of the time, the 87u for desktop use and HHKB for my laptop. I still prefer the Cherry MX based keyboards for gaming use. In my opinion any enthusiast owes it to themselves to find out. In my case I would have saved a bunch of money if had earlier in my quest for my perfect keyboard(s). But I have no regrets, some love them and some don't but you don't have much lose to find out in my opinion. 

+1

[TheQsanity]

What's the difference from the HHKB and the Realforce? Does it have something to do with how heavy it is? What makes some of them cost 400 500 bucks?

[eth0s]

Yes, I agree, you have to buy multiple keyboards to figure out what you like.

HHKB Pro and RealForce cost around $270 at this time, due to Yen/Dollar exchange rate.

$400 HHKB Pro is the Type-S, which is the silent version.  Also Silent RealForce is more expensive as well.

I dunno why, I guess the silent switches cost more to manufacture.   

[tp4tissue]

Yes, I agree, you have to buy multiple keyboards to figure out what you like.

HHKB Pro and RealForce cost around $270 at this time, due to Yen/Dollar exchange rate.

$400 HHKB Pro is the Type-S, which is the silent version.  Also Silent RealForce is more expensive as well.

I dunno why, I guess the silent switches cost more to manufacture.   

LOLOL, HAHAHAHAHA, calling me a hater when you don't even know the topre basics

[SpAmRaY]

Great now after reading this thread through I not only want to try ergo clears but now I want to try a topre board!

[tp4tissue]

Great now after reading this thread through I not only want to try ergo clears but now I want to try a topre board!

The topre 660 groupbuy is definitly worth it.. good price/ form factor.. the ugly 87s on the other hand.. blechhhhh.... why did they put that lip on top...

cheapest way to get ergo clear now, is to get an ergo dox.

[Macsmasher]

What's the difference from the HHKB and the Realforce? Does it have something to do with how heavy it is? What makes some of them cost 400 500 bucks?

Key switches on the HHKB are PCB mounted. The Realforce are plate mounted. Personally, I prefer plate mounted.

[002]

Switches on the HHKB aren't PCB mounted, rather the upper housing of the switch is all moulded as one piece.
I know what you mean though, and I prefer the metal plate in the Realforce too

[Macsmasher]

I had heard they were PCB mounted. Thanks for the correction.

[daerid]

"Case-mounted" would be the most accurate term.

[MJ45]

Switches on the HHKB aren't PCB mounted, rather the upper housing of the switch is all moulded as one piece.
I know what you mean though, and I prefer the metal plate in the Realforce too

Show Image

The HHKB's design with its low weight and small size is why I got it, for on the go use with laptops nothing comes close. I agree that plate mounted is better, for desktop use where size and weight doesn't matter the 87u 55g is my choice.   

[002]

Makes sense to me; I've always said that you should buy an HHKB for it's portability and layout. The Topre switches are just a bonus 

[kelske]

This thread has been a great read.

My take away is: try them all until you find which one you like most.. A Shine II with Clears in the mail and dibs on Boost's 660C GB I'm planning to do just that

Yay keyboard party! Yay justification on buying more boards!

Edit: Here's said Group Buy for the 660C if anyone's interested: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43134.0

[noisyturtle]

Isn't it the general(keyword) consensus that ergo clears are the best MX switch?

[daerid]

I'm pretty sure there is no general consensus. Lots of people like lots of switches.

[tp4tissue]

Isn't it the general(keyword) consensus that ergo clears are the best MX switch?

M.... as far as "tactile" cherry mx goes, people usually settle on MX clears because it maintains the high level of tactility like that of MX blue, without the "sharp" click sound.

mx brown doesn't really feel like tactile..  unlubed it feels like a grain of sand stuck in a cherry mx-red switch..

once you lube the brown, it feels like a smoothed out grain of sand, so kind of like "a slow spot" of resistance near the actuation point,

[VesperSAINT]

M.... as far as "tactile" cherry mx goes, people usually settle on MX clears because it maintains the high level of tactility like that of MX blue, without the "sharp" click sound.

mx brown doesn't really feel like tactile..  unlubed it feels like a grain of sand stuck in a cherry mx-red switch..

once you lube the brown, it feels like a smoothed out grain of sand, so kind of like "a slow spot" of resistance near the actuation point,

Couldn't agree with this post more. I'll know what lubed browns will feel very soon before I turn it into an ergo-clear. I will have to see which one I prefer between the Clears and erg-clears and sell the least favorite.

[hashbaz]

Isn't it the general(keyword) consensus that ergo clears are the best MX switch?

lolno.  A lot of people love them, but there's nothing even close to a consensus.  Arguing about switch preference is the raison d'etre of the forum.

All these switch threads come down to a few objective descriptions of weight, tactile vs linear, etc., a lot of arguing and assertions about preference, and tp4tissue trolling Topre people.

Ultimately you gotta catch em all to know what's best for you.

[VesperSAINT]

Isn't it the general(keyword) consensus that ergo clears are the best MX switch?

lolno.  A lot of people love them, but there's nothing even close to a consensus.  Arguing about switch preference is the raison d'etre of the forum.

All these switch threads come down to a few objective descriptions of weight, tactile vs linear, etc., a lot of arguing and assertions about preference, and tp4tissue trolling Topre people.

Ultimately you gotta catch em all to know what's best for you.

Show Image

Lol! I only have a full keyboard of Ergo-clears and a Topre to own/try out... Ergo-clear in the progress and I'm too hobo for Topre just yet.

[Jocelyn]

Lol! I only have a full keyboard of Ergo-clears and a Topre to own/try out... Ergo-clear in the progress and I'm too hobo for Topre just yet.

If you don't get one by the time I get to Orlando, I'll buy one and let you borrow it for a week

[VesperSAINT]

If you don't get one by the time I get to Orlando, I'll buy one and let you borrow it for a week

That 660C??? I know how much you love those 60%/like 60% layout I'm so tempted to rob my neighborhood and buy one of those

[tp4tissue]

Isn't it the general(keyword) consensus that ergo clears are the best MX switch?

lolno.  A lot of people love them, but there's nothing even close to a consensus.  Arguing about switch preference is the raison d'etre of the forum.

All these switch threads come down to a few objective descriptions of weight, tactile vs linear, etc., a lot of arguing and assertions about preference, and tp4tissue trolling Topre people.

Ultimately you gotta catch em all to know what's best for you.

Show Image

I don't troll Topre people.. I keep them in line....   >:D