Author Topic: Standard ErgoDox kit  (Read 5562 times)

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Offline MOZ

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Standard ErgoDox kit
« on: Mon, 16 December 2013, 14:13:08 »
With various GB happening now and most likely in the future, as well as the number of ErgoDox users increasing, there is a greater need for a legends kit for the ErgoDox.

Most ErgoDox users, use the alphanumeric for the 1x keys int he middle, however we require a special kit for the other keys. Now, many GB organisers have been kind enough to include some sort of kit to use the sets on ErgoDox, however these are almost always blank, reason being that every ErgoDox user has hi/her own layout.

One way to solve this problem is to develop a standard kit, mostly comprising of generic legends, once that is established, we as a community can figure out how to go about funding it, but that is a later concern, we first need to discuss on what would comprise of a feasible ErgoDox kit.

Discuss away ...

Offline regack

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 16 December 2013, 14:43:06 »
Nice idea MOZ.  Unfortunately, I have nothing to add, since I _still_ haven't finished building the left hand of my ErgoDox...

Offline jalli

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  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 16 December 2013, 15:27:06 »
I think I can add something.

These are the keys that would not be present in a normal set but would be useful for the ErgoDOX.

Here are the things I think almost everyone can agree upon
2X Caps
  • Enter
  • Space
  • Backspace
  • Delete

1.5X Caps
  • Tab
  • Esc
  • Shift (Left and Right)
  • CTRL  (Left and Right)

1X Caps
  • Win/Sup/Gui (Left and Right)


And here are some that I think would be fairly common
1X Caps
  •     | \   
  •     L0 (Left and Right)
  •     L1 (Left and Right)
  •     L2 (Left and Right)
  •     CTRL  (Left and Right)
  •     ALT  (Left and Right)

1.5X Caps
  •     -_
  •     += 
  •     | \   
  •     L0 
  •     L1 (Left and Right)
  •     ' " 

And here are some that are really out there for most but I would really like
1X Caps
  •     , ;   
  •     . :   
  •     ] }   
  •     { [   
  •     < (   
  •     ) >   
  •     / \   
Antonia

Offline Pacifist

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 16 December 2013, 15:28:29 »
so do we call it the ergodox kit or the moz kit?  :))

Offline Latin00032

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 16 December 2013, 15:46:45 »
Finally!

Someone is addressing this problem.

I thought we would not be able to find a solution for this because everyone has there boards setup a certain way.

One idea for contribution is to make sure the kits include multiple sets of the same keys in different sizes.

You can't just stick too much with the standard layout.

You will probably need some keys that are duplicates that ambiguously represent other keys.

Offline Latin00032

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 16 December 2013, 15:50:03 »
Maybe if some of the ergodox users post there setups we can find similarities in their key setups.

Offline MOZ

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 16 December 2013, 16:57:24 »
Similar keys in different sizes is going to be very expensive. I think with SA, we can go with all keys R3, and with DCS we can go with DSA. Say what?

Taking from jalli,

Here are the things I think almost everyone can agree upon
2X Caps
Enter
Space
Backspace
Delete

1.5X Caps
Tab
Shift (Left and Right)

1X Caps
Win/Gui (Left and Right)


And here are some that I think would be fairly common
1X Caps
    CTRL  (Left and Right)
    ALT  (Left and Right)

1X Caps
    , ;   
    . :   
    ] }   
    { [   
    < (   
    ) >   
    / \

Generic keycaps (Not suggesting all be part of the kit, these are just suggestions):
Thumb
Cluster
Left
Right
Super
Hyper
Meta
GeekHack
Geek \n Hack (Two lines)
Geek
Hack
ErgoDox
Ergo \n Dox (Two lines)
Code
Run
Fn
Mode
Diamond shape
Circle
Square
Triangle
Cross
Commodore Logo
Keyboard Runner

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 16 December 2013, 17:38:32 »
No body will ever agree... on the keys...

Egdx is without bounds or labels..

It cannot be tamed...

Egdx is like the T1001, super hawt, can transform into whatever you want, and kills people




Offline Pacifist

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 16 December 2013, 17:43:44 »
No body will ever agree... on the keys...

Egdx is without bounds or labels..

It cannot be tamed...

Egdx is like the T1001, super hawt, can transform into whatever you want, and kills people

Show Image


Show Image


is that your fetish?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 16 December 2013, 17:52:58 »
No body will ever agree... on the keys...

Egdx is without bounds or labels..

It cannot be tamed...

Egdx is like the T1001, super hawt, can transform into whatever you want, and kills people

Show Image


Show Image


is that your fetish?

Before you criticize.. let's look at this objectively..

Woman:

Sexy time
Eats food
Bathroom breaks
Looks good (some times)

T1001:

Does homework, does REAL work

Can run Crysis, youcan probably plug a monitor into her fine booty and play all future video games

Can kill your enemies

Morph into any woman..

Physical appearance never ages

Does not need to go to the bathroom or sleep

Offline jaymatter

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 17 December 2013, 01:08:43 »
A really good idea, Moz. Here's my layout, for an example:

https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=8RZKC9&hash=29885c891430eb319d45cdcb8ed144dd

I have a scheme in the works to give myself exactly the labels I want. While not doubleshot, the solution should be relatively durable if it works. Waiting for some samples to come in the mail, and some experimentation will have to happen. If results are good, I'll share with the group. Should be relatively inexpensive option too.
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 December 2013, 01:10:43 by jaymatter »

Offline yasuo

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 17 December 2013, 01:14:16 »
No body will ever agree... on the keys...

Egdx is without bounds or labels..

It cannot be tamed...

Egdx is like the T1001, super hawt, can transform into whatever you want, and kills people

Show Image


Show Image


is that your fetish?

Before you criticize.. let's look at this objectively..

Woman:

Sexy time
Eats food
Bathroom breaks
Looks good (some times)

T1001:

Does homework, does REAL work

Can run Crysis, youcan probably plug a monitor into her fine booty and play all future video games

Can kill your enemies

Morph into any woman..

Physical appearance never ages

Does not need to go to the bathroom or sleep
So,you choose EgDx than women
Logitech MK220 Colemak DH
SplitSyml by Moz BlacksMx fuk blacks

2/3 8.5pm                                          in de la my september month ya da all get my fukka "fake message"

Offline Larken

  • Posts: 624
Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 17 December 2013, 01:41:10 »
For a DSA kit, the retro set had it covered pretty well.



a set of kit 7 and kit 9 basically covers everything needed for an ergodox in terms of legends, even for those who want their legends to match their actual keys. 1x keys are useful for populating the bottom mod row as well as the thumb clusters.

The legends above could be used as a starting reference point as to what is available at SP, in addition to the other common keys from the other buys, like SUPER, CODE, HACK etc.

For the SA and DCS buys, it would be way more complicated, as some would be amenable to a profile mismatch, which others are  nitpicky about; though I imagine that most of us who have been using their ergodox full-time for the last few months would know that the legends doesn't really affect how we type (especially given the options we have for remapping).

It means that it is more than likely that you'd never get 100% consensus on the legended kits, especially if you're going with the actual sculpted profiles as opposed to getting SA row 3 for all mods (what honeywell offers).

I'd say we vote on either agreeing on a standard qwerty layout for legended keys in the respective sculpted profiles (meaning from top-left, we'd have something like SUPER, TAB, CTRL,SHIFT, blanks for the middle mods, and similarly, BACKSPACE, |\, RETURN/Enter, SHIFT for the right mods). This set up pretty much means that we''re going for something aesthetically pleasing which would more or less not match the keys in each of our respective layouts.

e.g. Just for looks, doesn't match what's under the hood.

OR

We could go with using DSA mods in the fashion of the retro kit 7 and 9 for the DCS buys, and similarly so for the SA buys, using SA Row 3 for all the mods.
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 December 2013, 01:43:35 by Larken »
| Ergodox #1 | Ergodox #2 |


Filco Majestouch Brown | Ducky 1087 Brown | Cherry G80-3494 Reds | Unicomp Ultra Classics | Cherry G80-8113 Clears |

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 17 December 2013, 09:27:11 »
No body will ever agree... on the keys...

Egdx is without bounds or labels..

It cannot be tamed...

Egdx is like the T1001, super hawt, can transform into whatever you want, and kills people

Show Image


Show Image


is that your fetish?

Before you criticize.. let's look at this objectively..

Woman:

Sexy time
Eats food
Bathroom breaks
Looks good (some times)

T1001:

Does homework, does REAL work

Can run Crysis, youcan probably plug a monitor into her fine booty and play all future video games

Can kill your enemies

Morph into any woman..

Physical appearance never ages

Does not need to go to the bathroom or sleep
So,you choose EgDx than women
Show Image


No..

I would choose T1001 over human-female 100% of the time.

If Egdx and human-female were also mutually exclusive choices, I would choose Egdx 98% of the time.


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 17 December 2013, 09:33:42 »
For a DSA kit, the retro set had it covered pretty well.

Show Image


a set of kit 7 and kit 9 basically covers everything needed for an ergodox in terms of legends, even for those who want their legends to match their actual keys. 1x keys are useful for populating the bottom mod row as well as the thumb clusters.

The legends above could be used as a starting reference point as to what is available at SP, in addition to the other common keys from the other buys, like SUPER, CODE, HACK etc.

For the SA and DCS buys, it would be way more complicated, as some would be amenable to a profile mismatch, which others are  nitpicky about; though I imagine that most of us who have been using their ergodox full-time for the last few months would know that the legends doesn't really affect how we type (especially given the options we have for remapping).

It means that it is more than likely that you'd never get 100% consensus on the legended kits, especially if you're going with the actual sculpted profiles as opposed to getting SA row 3 for all mods (what honeywell offers).

I'd say we vote on either agreeing on a standard qwerty layout for legended keys in the respective sculpted profiles (meaning from top-left, we'd have something like SUPER, TAB, CTRL,SHIFT, blanks for the middle mods, and similarly, BACKSPACE, |\, RETURN/Enter, SHIFT for the right mods). This set up pretty much means that we''re going for something aesthetically pleasing which would more or less not match the keys in each of our respective layouts.

e.g. Just for looks, doesn't match what's under the hood.

OR

We could go with using DSA mods in the fashion of the retro kit 7 and 9 for the DCS buys, and similarly so for the SA buys, using SA Row 3 for all the mods.

here's the thing.. DSA isn't as good as the profiled caps due to their smaller top-surface area, by measurement, almost HALF vs standard profiled caps.

and given that we can use the caps without label with no performance penalty.

WHY are we now putting more resources into this matter.

--something to buy?

--for tradition?

--to show off to other people?

--the need to personalize and stand out?


It would seem all of those reasons are personal issues that would be best worked out else where...

If anything dressing up a keyboard for the need of vanity is epic useless...


Offline jalli

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 17 December 2013, 09:57:51 »
Try explaining to your parents or girlfriend that their new keyboard does not need legends and all will be revealed.

I'd estimate 95% of the world uses the legends to some degree.

Yes the world would be a better place if people just learned proper touch typing, but the same is true for things like the metric system, global metric time, electrical frequency, electrical voltage, which side of the road to drive and a whole bunch of other things.

It's not the best solution that wins but the one with the least initial or ongoing effort required.


For a DSA kit, the retro set had it covered pretty well.

Show Image


a set of kit 7 and kit 9 basically covers everything needed for an ergodox in terms of legends, even for those who want their legends to match their actual keys. 1x keys are useful for populating the bottom mod row as well as the thumb clusters.

The legends above could be used as a starting reference point as to what is available at SP, in addition to the other common keys from the other buys, like SUPER, CODE, HACK etc.

For the SA and DCS buys, it would be way more complicated, as some would be amenable to a profile mismatch, which others are  nitpicky about; though I imagine that most of us who have been using their ergodox full-time for the last few months would know that the legends doesn't really affect how we type (especially given the options we have for remapping).

It means that it is more than likely that you'd never get 100% consensus on the legended kits, especially if you're going with the actual sculpted profiles as opposed to getting SA row 3 for all mods (what honeywell offers).

I'd say we vote on either agreeing on a standard qwerty layout for legended keys in the respective sculpted profiles (meaning from top-left, we'd have something like SUPER, TAB, CTRL,SHIFT, blanks for the middle mods, and similarly, BACKSPACE, |\, RETURN/Enter, SHIFT for the right mods). This set up pretty much means that we''re going for something aesthetically pleasing which would more or less not match the keys in each of our respective layouts.

e.g. Just for looks, doesn't match what's under the hood.

OR

We could go with using DSA mods in the fashion of the retro kit 7 and 9 for the DCS buys, and similarly so for the SA buys, using SA Row 3 for all the mods.

here's the thing.. DSA isn't as good as the profiled caps due to their smaller top-surface area, by measurement, almost HALF vs standard profiled caps.

and given that we can use the caps without label with no performance penalty.

WHY are we now putting more resources into this matter.

--something to buy?

--for tradition?

--to show off to other people?

--the need to personalize and stand out?


It would seem all of those reasons are personal issues that would be best worked out else where...

If anything dressing up a keyboard for the need of vanity is epic useless...
Show Image

Antonia

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 17 December 2013, 21:02:06 »
Try explaining to your parents or girlfriend that their new keyboard does not need legends and all will be revealed.

I'd estimate 95% of the world uses the legends to some degree.

Yes the world would be a better place if people just learned proper touch typing, but the same is true for things like the metric system, global metric time, electrical frequency, electrical voltage, which side of the road to drive and a whole bunch of other things.

It's not the best solution that wins but the one with the least initial or ongoing effort required.


For a DSA kit, the retro set had it covered pretty well.

Show Image


a set of kit 7 and kit 9 basically covers everything needed for an ergodox in terms of legends, even for those who want their legends to match their actual keys. 1x keys are useful for populating the bottom mod row as well as the thumb clusters.

The legends above could be used as a starting reference point as to what is available at SP, in addition to the other common keys from the other buys, like SUPER, CODE, HACK etc.

For the SA and DCS buys, it would be way more complicated, as some would be amenable to a profile mismatch, which others are  nitpicky about; though I imagine that most of us who have been using their ergodox full-time for the last few months would know that the legends doesn't really affect how we type (especially given the options we have for remapping).

It means that it is more than likely that you'd never get 100% consensus on the legended kits, especially if you're going with the actual sculpted profiles as opposed to getting SA row 3 for all mods (what honeywell offers).

I'd say we vote on either agreeing on a standard qwerty layout for legended keys in the respective sculpted profiles (meaning from top-left, we'd have something like SUPER, TAB, CTRL,SHIFT, blanks for the middle mods, and similarly, BACKSPACE, |\, RETURN/Enter, SHIFT for the right mods). This set up pretty much means that we''re going for something aesthetically pleasing which would more or less not match the keys in each of our respective layouts.

e.g. Just for looks, doesn't match what's under the hood.

OR

We could go with using DSA mods in the fashion of the retro kit 7 and 9 for the DCS buys, and similarly so for the SA buys, using SA Row 3 for all the mods.

here's the thing.. DSA isn't as good as the profiled caps due to their smaller top-surface area, by measurement, almost HALF vs standard profiled caps.

and given that we can use the caps without label with no performance penalty.

WHY are we now putting more resources into this matter.

--something to buy?

--for tradition?

--to show off to other people?

--the need to personalize and stand out?


It would seem all of those reasons are personal issues that would be best worked out else where...

If anything dressing up a keyboard for the need of vanity is epic useless...
Show Image


95% of the world can go ffff itself...

Nawh.. jkjk...

Um, it's definitely an issue if you're sharing computers..

But honestly... I can't imagine anyone with an Egdx would only have 1 computer.. and that he'd have to share it..

Does this actually happen?


Offline Wildcard

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 21 December 2013, 15:50:57 »
MOZ do you think you could churn out some Ergodox cases at some point?

Offline tricheboars

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 22 January 2014, 10:36:00 »
I want to purchase caps with proper legends for my dox very very badly.

SoWare caps and Cherry legends. Do it!
|  Fundamentalist ErgoDox Zealot  |  HHKB Hybrid

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 22 January 2014, 11:32:04 »
I want to purchase caps with proper legends for my dox very very badly.

SoWare caps and Cherry legends. Do it!

the only way is to get it lasered...  buy whatever caps you want in blank.. and call up WASDkeyboards, and mail it to them.. they could probably do it.

Offline yasuo

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 22 January 2014, 11:37:00 »
any problems with DSA SP?...

If anything dressing up a keyboard for the need of vanity is epic useless...
Show Image

btw i like tp4 say :p though...... :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 January 2014, 11:42:53 by yasuo »
Logitech MK220 Colemak DH
SplitSyml by Moz BlacksMx fuk blacks

2/3 8.5pm                                          in de la my september month ya da all get my fukka "fake message"

Offline CommunistWitchDr

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Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 22 January 2014, 11:46:20 »
I'd say that with printed keycaps, only DSA is really acceptable. A lot of ergo keyboard users also use colemak/dvorak/maltron/whatever and printed sculpted caps would be mislabeled on any of those. Really, I'm not much of one for printed caps for programmable keyboards at all, since you can move any key anywhere. But if you have printed keys, it's a bit more limited. Not even just with modifiers, look at layouts like maltron that move letters to non 1x keys (maltron places the e on the 2x thumb key).

Offline wuqe

  • Posts: 105
  • Location: WA, USA
Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 22 January 2014, 20:37:39 »
Fair point, but... round 5 caps look so slick! I'm planning on getting the Dvorak set for the alphas and leaving the rest blank, because the programmability is so easy that I find myself changing something in the layout each week.

My 2x caps are currently set to:

Backspace
Shift
Function (for e.g. arrows on IJKL)
Space

I've moved Enter off to one of the adjacent 1x keys.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 January 2014, 20:42:23 by wuqe »

Offline wjanssens

  • Posts: 4
Re: Standard ErgoDox kit
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 23 January 2014, 00:09:41 »
It seems like a pretty tall order to come up with a standard Ergodox mod.  Even assuming a common layout like Kinesis Advantage doesn't take you very far since it seems that most people are quick to customize.  I do follow the Advantage layout very closely (since I use one) but in Dvorak and even then I have some modifications on my Ergodox.  It would probably be best to just have 10 1.5x, 4 2x, and somewhere between 0 to 8 blank 1x over and above the alphanumerics in the matching profile.  Tab, shift, and \| are likely the only 1.5x keys that most people would have in common.

FWIW, this closely resembles my layout (I'm using Cub's TMK for the extra media keys and a proper layer lock though)
https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=R5CTX2&hash=0a885927035eeb474d6d51394ef3ee39

That layout means I would need the following in 1.5 which I haven't really see listed above:
/?
-_
=+
Esc / Caps

I'm also a mac user so how about Command and Option in 1x?

And being a Dvorak user I'd also want U and H to have homing bumps or deep dishes.  Not sure how many home row possibilities there are when you add in Colemak, Workman, etc...

From what I've seen of the group buys that have had Ergodox mods, I'm better off getting a custom 104-key set from WASD and living with a couple of blank DSA keys on the sides and thumbs.  That way I can legend my function layer as well which would be absolutely impossible in a group buy.  I have a WASD custom layout ready to go but haven't pulled the trigger yet -- not sure having legends is even worth the $$.