Author Topic: Dat immigration bill tho  (Read 4868 times)

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Offline noisyturtle

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Dat immigration bill tho
« on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 02:06:42 »
I mean, honestly.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 02:34:54 »
By “immigration bill” do you mean the bill that passed with a large majority in the Senate last year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Security,_Economic_Opportunity,_and_Immigration_Modernization_Act_of_2013) that the House Republicans have refused to bring to a vote, or do you mean the White House’s recently announced plan (not a bill)?

The Obama plan seems like the only morally responsible thing to do; US immigration policy has been fundamentally broken for at least the past 50 years, in ways that cause massive amounts of suffering; prior policy effectively leaves people in legal limbo (and therefore vulnerable to exploitation) by encouraging them to come work here but not granting them any official recognition or legal rights. Sorting that mess out is something the GOP is unwilling to do because they’d have to choose between doing the moral thing and pissing off their xenophobic racist supporters, or succumbing to the hard-right’s wishes, which would both cripple parts of the economy and lose them any chance of attracting hispanic votes for decades.

It’s ****ty that our politics have gotten to the point where legislation and governing are the exceptional activity and most attention and effort is focused on fearmongering and stalling, but since the overall political climate seems to be unfixable, it’s nice that Obama hasn’t completely given up on doing actually useful things.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 November 2014, 02:40:35 by jacobolus »

Offline baldgye

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 03:14:53 »
How can I bash America if you don't even post what your chatting about bro?

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 03:18:50 »
By �immigration bill� do you mean the bill that passed with a large majority in the Senate last year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Security,_Economic_Opportunity,_and_Immigration_Modernization_Act_of_2013) that the House Republicans have refused to bring to a vote, or do you mean the White House�s recently announced plan (not a bill)?

The Obama plan seems like the only morally responsible thing to do; US immigration policy has been fundamentally broken for at least the past 50 years, in ways that cause massive amounts of suffering; prior policy effectively leaves people in legal limbo (and therefore vulnerable to exploitation) by encouraging them to come work here but not granting them any official recognition or legal rights. Sorting that mess out is something the GOP is unwilling to do because they�d have to choose between doing the moral thing and pissing off their xenophobic racist supporters, or succumbing to the hard-right�s wishes, which would both cripple parts of the economy and lose them any chance of attracting hispanic votes for decades.

It�s ****ty that our politics have gotten to the point where legislation and governing are the exceptional activity and most attention and effort is focused on fearmongering and stalling, but since the overall political climate seems to be unfixable, it�s nice that Obama hasn�t completely given up on doing actually useful things.

So what, you think it's just a bluff to gain leverage because he just got pounced in the midterms, or are you saying it's a necessary FU?

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 03:25:41 »
So what, you think it's just a bluff to gain leverage because he just got pounced in the midterms, or are you saying it's a necessary FU?
No, I’m saying it’s the morally right thing to do (as a first step; there’s lots more work to do), and fixes to the immigration system should have happened long ago, but couldn’t because a certain proportion of Republican representatives and certain groups of their supporters are racist asshats. (Not to mention plenty of Democrats who perpetuate / condone our broken immigration system. For instance Diane Feinstein in California went along with Pete Wilson’s (the governor at the time) race-baiting immigration bull**** in the early 1990s, because she was afraid that she’d lose the xenophobic racist crazy vote and she has no moral backbone; alas.)

I don’t think any kind of cynicism is required to interpret Obama’s plan. It’s not a bluff, and the only thing it has to do with the midterms is that with the GOP continuing to control the House, the Congress is unlikely to do anything but put their fingers in their ears and say "LALALALAL WE CANT HEAR YOU" while people continue to suffer. Obama finally decided there wasn’t any reason to wait.

There’s nothing inherently “FU” about it. This is about helping people. (Though I’m sure he’s happy to also push the Republicans to get off their asses and work on doing their job of legislating.)

By the way, if you want to learn about the history of undocumented immigration to the US and our ****ing terrible policy responses to it, I can recommend several books. This is actually something I know quite a bit about.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 November 2014, 03:33:49 by jacobolus »

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 03:32:44 »
So what, you think it's just a bluff to gain leverage because he just got pounced in the midterms, or are you saying it's a necessary FU?
No, I�m saying it�s the morally right thing to do, and fixes to the immigration system should have happened long ago, but couldn�t because a certain proportion of Republican representatives and certain groups of their supporters are racist asshats.

I don�t think any kind of cynicism is required to interpret Obama�s plan. It�s not a bluff, and the only thing it has to do with the midterms is that with the GOP continuing to control the House, the Congress is unlikely to do anything but put their fingers in their ears and say "LALALALAL WE CANT HEAR YOU" while people continue to suffer. Obama finally decided there wasn�t any reason to wait.

There�s nothing inherently �FU� about it. This is about helping people.

It's really just a show of power though. It doesn't change ****, it's a pointless exercise ultimately for reform except for creating even more bipartisan animosity. If anything it lops a leg of immigration reform and pushes it down a hill towards some sharks.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 03:34:28 »
It doesn't change ****,
Why do you think that? I think it’s going to make an immediate dramatic difference for the better.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 03:35:27 »
By the way, your browser / operating system seems to have broken Unicode handling. You keep replacing my quotation marks with invalid code points when you quote me.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 03:37:38 »
Sooner or later.. The Asian gangs will move in harder on corporate 'Murica..    and then I could play sleeping dogs.. for realzies.. 

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 03:43:31 »
It doesn't change ****,
Why do you think that? I think it's going to make an immediate dramatic difference for the better.

I just mean that it's a quick and dirty way to push 5 million people through the gates, but ultimately everything following will get annihilated since senate and house majority can just wave everything away now. Not that that's any different than before, but everyone would have their thumbs that much further in their ears.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 04:06:55 »
I just mean that it's a quick and dirty way to push 5 million people through the gates,
Huh? No one is being pushed anywhere. The problem was that before people were being pushed around in dirty ways. The point of the changes is to improve that situation and reduce some of the dirtiness.

Quote
but ultimately everything following will get annihilated since senate and house majority can just wave everything away now.
Wanna take bets on how this will go? What does “annihilated” mean specifically in this context?

Quote
Not that that's any different than before,
I think the real immigration enforcement mechanisms, official accounting/recognition, and outcomes for people are going to be materially better a year from now than they were a year ago.

What kind of “difference” are you expecting?

What would you have Obama / Congress / INS / police / whoever do to fix/improve the immigration system, since you apparently don’t like the proposed White House plan? Is the only thing you dislike the way Obama is going about making changes? Complaining about that without offering any viable alternative mechanism (current congress is basically entirely dysfunctional) isn’t really very useful.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 November 2014, 04:10:20 by jacobolus »

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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 10:33:31 »
...the GOP is unwilling to do because they�d have to choose between doing the moral thing and pissing off their xenophobic racist supporters...

Really, bro? If you truly believe that most people who vote Republican are like this, then you are either deluded, angry, or just plain uninformed. You do realize that there are millions of moderately conservative libertarians who vote for GOP candidates because that is the only option we have, don't you? Realistically, it's a two party system, and there is no other option. We can't vote for the liberal candidate, because it doesn't agree with our principles. And to vote for a third party candidate would essentially be a vote AGAINST the only candidate who has a chance to win against a liberal opponent. For reference, see: my vote for Ross Perot in the 1992 election, which got that clown from Arkansas elected.

As to the immigration executive order, it's just a last gasp of an ineffective President. Come to this country legally, or be deported. Amnesty will only encourage more illegal immigration to the US, which in turn will tax our limited resources. As a resident of Texas, just a couple hundred miles from the border with Mexico, I am directly affected. These people need to go back to Mexico or apply for legal status, not be a burden on the system due to their welfare lifestyle mentality.

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Offline demik

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 10:38:51 »
yeah. Those God damn Mexicans.

Canadian illegals, European, Asian, and Africans are okay though.

Way to break that stereotype.  :thumb:
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Offline baldgye

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 10:43:34 »
...the GOP is unwilling to do because they�d have to choose between doing the moral thing and pissing off their xenophobic racist supporters...

Really, bro? If you truly believe that most people who vote Republican are like this, then you are either deluded, angry, or just plain uninformed. You do realize that there are millions of moderately conservative libertarians who vote for GOP candidates because that is the only option we have, don't you? Realistically, it's a two party system, and there is no other option. We can't vote for the liberal candidate, because it doesn't agree with our principles. And to vote for a third party candidate would essentially be a vote AGAINST the only candidate who has a chance to win against a liberal opponent. For reference, see: my vote for Ross Perot in the 1992 election, which got that clown from Arkansas elected.

As to the immigration executive order, it's just a last gasp of an ineffective President. Come to this country legally, or be deported. Amnesty will only encourage more illegal immigration to the US, which in turn will tax our limited resources. As a resident of Texas, just a couple hundred miles from the border with Mexico, I am directly affected. These people need to go back to Mexico or apply for legal status, not be a burden on the system due to their welfare lifestyle mentality.



So you can only ever vote republican?
That's pretty odd, shouldn't you just vote for who ever you think is best for the job, based on there own policies etc rather than being based on the party they support??

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 10:45:38 »
yeah. Those God damn Mexicans.

Canadian illegals, European, Asian, and Africans are okay though.

Way to break that stereotype.  :thumb:

By the way, I'm sure you know, but Mexican isn't a race. :)

Many of my friends are of Mexican descent, but their grandparents came here legally.

TIL I'm a racist xenophobe because I believe in the sanctity of law.
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Offline demik

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 10:46:40 »
More like, you pick one group of people to target instead of the whole picture. Because, you know, everybody crossing the Mexican board is Mexican.. not from El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua.. just Mexican.

But right, you're the victim here. Boo hoo.
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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 10:51:05 »
So you can only ever vote republican?
That's pretty odd, shouldn't you just vote for who ever you think is best for the job, based on there own policies etc rather than being based on the party they support??

Yes, and in local elections I care very little about party affiliation. But in national elections, the differences are pretty clear cut. And it has to do with voting in congress, and which party has the majority.
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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 10:54:00 »
More like, you pick one group of people to target instead of the whole picture. Because, you know, everybody crossing the Mexican board is Mexican.. not from El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua.. just Mexican.

No, you're right. I misspoke. I should have said send them back to Mexico, Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, etc.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 10:54:25 »
So you can only ever vote republican?
That's pretty odd, shouldn't you just vote for who ever you think is best for the job, based on there own policies etc rather than being based on the party they support??

Yes, and in local elections I care very little about party affiliation. But in national elections, the differences are pretty clear cut. And it has to do with voting in congress, and which party has the majority.

And you've only ever voted republican?

Edit: not sure wtf happened here, on mobile

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 10:56:24 »
So you can only ever vote republican?
That's pretty odd, shouldn't you just vote for who ever you think is best for the job, based on there own policies etc rather than being based on the party they support??

Yes, and in local elections I care very little about party affiliation. But in national elections, the differences are pretty clear cut. And it has to do with voting in congress, and which party has the majority.

And you've only ever voted republican?

No, not at all. I've voted for independent candidates, Democrats, other party candidates as well as Republican candidates.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 10:57:24 »
Fair enough, your original post just sounded a little, 'one sided' so I was curious

Offline demik

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 10:57:38 »
why are you guys' quotes jumping around?

i see baldgye's response under jd's name and vice versa
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Offline baldgye

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 10:59:00 »
why are you guys' quotes jumping around?

i see baldgye's response under jd's name and vice versa

Yeah idk what was up with that, I guess when jd chopped up my reply he missed one of the tags or something?

Offline iri

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 11:01:45 »
Wow that's the first time I see someone from Texas opposing immigration.

Also, this seems to be the thread of misread posts.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 11:05:31 »
why are you guys' quotes jumping around?

i see baldgye's response under jd's name and vice versa

Yeah idk what was up with that, I guess when jd chopped up my reply he missed one of the tags or something?

Yeah, I'm on mobile and messed up a quote somewhere. :)
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 13:21:07 »
When do we send the OG illegal immigrants back to Spain, Portugal, France, etc?

Offline baldgye

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 13:26:25 »
When do we send the OG illegal immigrants back to Spain, Portugal, France, etc?

What about all the Irish cops you got?

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 13:26:58 »
When do we send the OG illegal immigrants back to Spain, Portugal, France, etc?

The irony of this situation...
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Offline demik

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 13:27:24 »
When do we send the OG illegal immigrants back to Spain, Portugal, France, etc?

The irony of this situation...

if only this was posted on thanksgiving.. then it would have been funnier.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 13:27:52 »
Really, bro? If you truly believe that most people who vote Republican are [xenophobic racists], then you are either deluded, angry, or just plain uninformed.
I never claimed that most people who vote Republican are like that. Only a substantial enough portion (maybe 20-30%? I dunno. Probably depends how much Fox News they watched that week.) that it heavily skews republican congressmen away from doing anything to improve the immigration system.

Anyway JD, I’m not going to argue about who you should vote for, etc.

Quote
Come to this country legally, or be deported. Amnesty will only encourage more illegal immigration to the US, which in turn will tax our limited resources. As a resident of Texas, just a couple hundred miles from the border with Mexico, I am directly affected. These people need to go back to Mexico or apply for legal status, not be a burden on the system due to their welfare lifestyle mentality.

But actually, this particular comment is pretty xenophobic and ignorant right here. -^ (This “welfare lifestyle mentality” thing is 100% bull****. Sorry JD, but whoever is selling you that is lying to you.)

It would take sitting down face to face for at least a few hours to share enough of my experience about how the whole system of undocumented immigration from Mexico to the US works, what the knock-on effects to the US economy are, and the historical policy reasons that immigration is such a big problem today. There’s no way I can cover it in a forum thread.

Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 13:29:53 »
Yes, deport everyone back to original ancestral homelands. Problem solved :D

To be more serious, it's time the process for getting visa, and residency or citizenship to be revised and made less complex and faster. For those that enter illegally it should be next day deportation period when they are caught. I don't see why they should be entitled to free services of any other kind.
Of course the biggest hurdle to change is 1%ers fear of losing those illegal workers they use as defacto slave labor in the businesses they own. It hurts that bottom line, it won't change.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 November 2014, 13:36:13 by IvanIvanovich »

Offline MOZ

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 14:05:40 »
Yes, please make it easier for us foreign nationals to come to the land of dreams.

Offline Lain1911

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 15:10:45 »
I've always thought if I went to another country for so many years and renounced my citizenship and sneaked back into the US illegally would I get any benefits easier.

Offline iri

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 15:30:01 »
It would take sitting down face to face for at least a few hours to share enough of my experience about how the whole system of undocumented immigration from Mexico to the US works, what the knock-on effects to the US economy are, and the historical policy reasons that immigration is such a big problem today. There’s no way I can cover it in a forum thread.
did you cross the border on your feet yourself?
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 15:50:46 »
did you cross the border on your feet yourself?
I have crossed the border by foot a couple times, but since I have a US passport, it’s a lot easier for me than for the folks who trek for days across abandoned stretches of desert.

But I do know quite a few people who crossed the border in various ways without papers.

FWIW, they’re the thriftiest hardest working SOBs I’ve ever met, they paid all their taxes just like everyone else without getting nearly the benefits “legal” immigrants or citizens get, and several of them got royally screwed over by employers and the US legal system.... but most of them still ended up much better off than they would have in rural villages in southern Mexico, where there are basically no jobs.

Some now have green cards and good steady jobs and families in the US, others took their savings back and started businesses in Mexico. A couple were permanently crippled by work injuries with effectively no compensation and are back in Mexico supported by their relatives, and a few more are in incredible amounts of debt (incurred with local loan sharks to get the money together to cross the border) and are back in their villages, even more broke than they were when they started.

Most undocumented immigrants to the US get deported multiple times and immediately cross back over the border at great expense to themselves; if you have a couple years of wages in debt to get across the border, it’s impossible to just give up and go home, or the loan shark will come take everything you own and beat up your family, so of course you cross back again and again. The whole border control system is basically set up in such a way that all the costs and risks get shoved down onto the poorest and most desperate, while most of the benefits accrue to shady employers. Just like everything else in our society I guess.

The restrictions on crossing the US/Mexico border over the past 30–40 years have had the paradoxical effect of trapping migrant workers in the US for much longer time than they would themselves prefer to stay. Before that time, migrant agricultural workers doing part-of-the-year work on US farms would go home during the off season. But once it started costing a lot (in money and time and uncertainty) to cross the border, they were effectively stuck, because they had to stay and work long enough in the US to make the trip worthwhile. As a result, each new batch of migrant farm workers would have to go find jobs in construction, or textile factories, or meat processing, or in restaurants, or whatever during the off season, instead of just returning to Mexico. Once they’d gotten stable jobs in something other than agriculture, they wouldn’t want to go back to picking vegetables the next year, so a whole new batch of migrant agricultural workers would need to be brought from Mexico. Repeat this every year for 30 years, and we now have a much larger immigrant population than before, directly as a result of policies intended (at least rhetorically) to curb immigration.

US agriculture is 100% dependent on undocumented Mexican immigrant labor. If you blocked all undocumented immigration to the US, food prices would go up dramatically and there would be a huge crisis. Likewise, construction, meat processing, low-skill manufacturing (furniture and textiles and whatever), etc. are totally reliant on undocumented immigration.

If you actually wanted to reduce the scope of undocumented immigration to the US, there are 4 things you can do: (1) invest money in economic development in Mexico (and stop the war on drugs in the US that makes Mexican drug cartels so powerful), (2) end US agricultural subsidies which have since NAFTA been destroying Mexican agriculture, (3) reduce the cost of crossing the border, e.g. by making it much easier for Mexicans to get visas to cross legally, by instituting a guest worker program, etc., and reduce the risks involved in being in the US by giving people better access to essential rights / services like drivers licenses, healthcare, school for their kids, workers’ compensation, minimum wages, etc., and make sure that violations of migrants rights are enforced properly (4) crack down on US employers who employ undocumented immigrants, with real penalties not just a wink and a nod.

Basically every proposal I’ve seen with policy changes (or continuing existing policy) that isn’t one of those 4 things is not really about reducing undocumented immigration in any real way, but instead just about punishing the immigrants (which is both cruel and totally ineffective in aggregate). Most of the Republican congressmen who keep talking about how terrible immigrants are don’t actually give a **** about stopping undocumented immigration. Their rhetoric is just a way to tap into fear and xenophobia, and score some points with ignorant racists who want to see poor brown people suffer.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 November 2014, 16:33:11 by jacobolus »

Offline iri

  • Posts: 1031
  • Location: England
Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 16:21:37 »
did you cross the border on your feet yourself?
I have crossed the border by foot a couple times, but since I have a US passport, it’s a lot easier for me than for the folks who trek for days across abandoned stretches of desert.
:thumb: in some areas even the passport is not necessary.
also the illegal latinos i know, they work hard but don't pay any taxes.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3670
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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 16:26:07 »
also the illegal latinos i know, they work hard but don't pay any taxes.
Most undocumented workers in the US have regular jobs and pay regular employment taxes just like anyone else (often using faked papers, but most employers are smart enough to know what’s going on, and are happy to benefit from cheaper labor and not ask questions). There are certainly some who get paid cash under the table, but that’s not the majority. Employers paying people in cash and not properly withholding federal income and payroll taxes are the ones breaking the law, and if you want to make sure people pay their taxes, those employers are the ones to go after.

Immigrants also pay sales taxes, etc.

Many undocumented immigrants actually pay more taxes than they would if they had work visas, because they tend not to ask for their tax rebates, for obvious reasons.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 November 2014, 16:31:25 by jacobolus »

Offline iri

  • Posts: 1031
  • Location: England
Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 16:34:48 »
also the illegal latinos i know, they work hard but don't pay any taxes.
Most undocumented workers in the US have regular jobs and pay regular employment taxes just like anyone else (often using faked papers, but most employers are smart enough to know what’s going on, and are happy to benefit from cheaper labor and not ask questions). There are certainly some who get paid cash under the table, but that’s not the majority. Employers paying people in cash and not properly withholding federal income and payroll taxes are the ones breaking the law, and if you want to make sure people pay their taxes, those employers are the ones to go after.

Immigrants also pay sales taxes, etc.

Many undocumented immigrants actually pay more taxes than they would if they had work visas, because they tend not to ask for their tax rebates, for obvious reasons.
unholy ****. this is broken on so many levels.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline Lain1911

  • God of the Wired
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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 16:40:22 »
I remember when I didn't have to have a passport to get into Canada :)

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 16:56:50 »
That's pretty much my argument, that the Order is just a one time deal to break the law for 5 million people, and piss everyone else off. How can it be anything more than one last middle finger or a power flex if the biggest role model in the country is just going to blatantly bend the law to his will while spitting in the face of every immigrant who worked the butts off to get into this country.

I mean, if I worked on predium-to-hire at a company for years and then my contract ended, but instead they hired a dozen ineffectual people with no training or background to fill the same position I was in. It's not the best example, but it's apt.

I don't know why people can't talk about immigration reform without resorting to straw-man arguments. "Oh let's deport everyone then"
That's not what the **** I'm talking about. Some of you would feel right at home talking in circles at the senate.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 November 2014, 16:59:40 by noisyturtle »

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3670
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 16:57:58 »
That's pretty much my argument, that the Order is just a one time deal to break the law for 5 million people, and piss everyone else off.
I get the impression you didn’t read anything I wrote. Also, you didn’t look at most of Obama’s plan.

I’m not sure what more I can tell you.

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #42 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 17:14:55 »
I don't know why people can't talk about immigration reform without resorting to straw-man arguments. "Oh let's deport everyone then"
That's not what the **** I'm talking about. Some of you would feel right at home talking in circles at the senate.

FTR, my comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek.  I mean, there's a bit of truth to the logic that we were all once illegal immigrants, but obviously it's not constructive within the realm of the current situation.  I didn't mean for it to seem like I was dismissing the situation.   :thumb:   To be honest, I'm incredibly disconnected from it all, and I don't know nearly enough to even comment on the situation.  I am enjoying the discussion though.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #43 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 17:27:31 »
Those of you advocating amnesty might feel differently if YOU had lost your job and gone to apply for benefits, only to be denied because you previously made "too much" money ($10/hr) so you don't qualify, while people in the same line who spoke zero English were approved almost automatically.

Or stood behind someone in line at the grocery store to buy your peanut butter and ramen, only to see the person in front of you with the basket full of groceries, to include t-bone steaks, whip out their food stamp card to pay for it.

Or intaken people in the jail where you worked, who came in with a Texas driver's license and food stamp card, but no green card.

That's how I know the system is broken.
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Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3670
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Re: Dat immigration bill tho
« Reply #44 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 17:39:13 »
JD: I’m sorry that you lost your job and got denied for benefits, and I’m sorry that you can’t get on food stamps but can’t afford any food but peanut butter and ramen. Our social safety net programs, especially the means tests that define them, are indeed pretty broken. I personally am in favor of scrapping them and replacing them with a universal basic income.

But I recommend you try to actually go talk to the people you’re demonizing, to understand what their lives are actually like and their decisionmaking processes. I guarantee you if you take an open mind and some empathy into real conversation with a few undocumented strangers, you’ll come away from the experience with a more enlightened appreciation of the issue.