Author Topic: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?  (Read 6385 times)

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Offline bmilcs

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Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« on: Tue, 15 May 2018, 17:04:45 »
Hi,

I'm a nerd who grew up with AOL v2.5, Splatterball, Instant Messages and mIRC bots. I took an interest in programming, and learned to make mischievous "Proggies", tools that you could punt people offline with or flood someones inbox with mass mail... when deleting stuff was a pain. I was such a turd as a teen.
 
Andddd I never, not once, tried a trackball.

Now that I'm a grown man, and experience RSI... sore wrists and hands from excessive mouse -> keyboard -> mouse -> keyboard movements... I need to find a solution

What trackball should I pop my cherry with?

CST LTrac

orrr

Elecom Huge

orrr

Whatever you think is better =)

Thanks!



UPDATE:



So far, so good.

A little awkward ergnomically speaking, and static friction is pretty high. I hope, with time, it'll smooth out.

I am going to most likely order an L-Trac soon as well and compare it side by side.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 May 2018, 09:57:27 by bmilcs »
  
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Offline emenelopee

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 15 May 2018, 18:58:30 »
wait for the next generation of logitech ergo

Deets and dates on this?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 15 May 2018, 19:42:47 »
wait for the next generation of logitech ergo

Deets and dates on this?

Don't know..

but now that the hero sensor exists,  it doesn't make sense for them to use anything else..


The main barrier for general office use has been battery, so they had to have 2 separate types of products between absolute gaming performance vs Sensible battery life for Office.

But now that their Hero sensor can supply 6 months of use on 2x AA batteries  at 1000hz and comparable tracking performance to the 3366.. 

There's no reason why they would NOT use that sensor in all of their wireless line of mice/trackball..  Since the cost of the sensor is negligible compared to their msrp and putting that sensor in would garner them ABSOLUTE DOMINANCE in the Office productivity field.



Offline katushkin

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 15 May 2018, 20:45:18 »
I've been using my L TRAC at work for best part of 18 months now and I really like it. It's great for the small desk space, and it's just nicely shaped for me.

I've not used another trackball though so I can't say I prefer it over another.
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Offline Tactile

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 15 May 2018, 21:27:02 »
Kensington have the Expert & Slimblade, both of which are popular. I have an Expert and like it.

The MX Ergo from Logitech is intriguing.

« Last Edit: Tue, 15 May 2018, 23:24:03 by Tactile »

Offline davkol

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 16 May 2018, 02:52:30 »
For me, it's between L-Trac and Slimblade.

The slimblade is easier to find (being a consumer-grade product from a major manufacturer) and has a somewhat more convenient button layout; I also like the idea of twist-to-scroll (and not the abysmal hardware ring on some other Kensington trackballs).

However, L-Trac is _much_ better quality and actually serviceable. It has a better sensor too, and so I don't have to use software acceleration at all.

I know some people talk about the chassis and how it's "more ergonomic" on the low-profile slimblade, but I don't think it matters. The long, contoured  CST chassis is quite comfortable to rest the palm on, and if you set your relative desk/arm height correctly, you probably shouldn't be resting any part of your hand on the desk or trackball itself; external support (from a thick book to ErgoRest) can be used anyway.

Elecom HUGE and DEFT Pro are on my radar, but I've been disappointed by the quality of their smaller/older models (EX-G and DEFT). I could live with the lack of a proper chassis coating (many industrial trackballs aren't much better in this regard) and those button switches (I can replace them by myself, which I've had to do already), but I haven't thought of any way to fix the cheap wheel Elecom uses.

I'm not a fan of thumb-operated trackballs for full-time usage—you might have noticed the Reddit post about de Quervain syndrome, which doesn't go well with current overuse of touch-screen/trackpad-operated portables. Although it's relatively convenient to carry around with a laptop.

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 16 May 2018, 03:39:55 »
I have Kensington Expert, Elecom DEFT, Elecom HUGE.

at the first day of using Elecom HUGE, my hand hurt... I guess it needs "getting used to"

I have used it for ~8 months, no problems. Right now I'm using it for gaming :)) not just web browsing/working.
my pointer and middle fingers are used for operating the ball,
the thumb has left click, scroll, back/forward to care,
the ring finger and pinky finger also have their buttons, so I won't be worried about my fingers getting lazy :D

I definitely recommend you trying out the trackball, also you should keep a glasses-cleaning cloth nearby and clean the ball regularly, that will ensure smooth operation of the ball. (maybe there is other cloth would work but I, myself, use glasses-cleaning cloth)

I have already have DEFT Pro on order, I feel it's time to replace the old DEFT ;D
---
about the MX Ergo, I bought one for my cousin as he wanted to try trackball and the tinting feature fancies him (a while ago he wanted to try vertical mouse but their low DPI is a turn down). Well, it seems he gets used to the MX Ergo in matter of days.
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Online algernon

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 16 May 2018, 05:24:57 »
I'm a big fan of my Kensington Orbit w/ scroll ring. It's affordable, and I found the scroll rings much nicer to use than other scrolling solutions (wheels or ball tilting). It only has two buttons, mind you, which may be an issue. The scroll ring isn't perfect either, but it's more convenient than anything else I've tried so far.

I also have a Logitech M570, a thumb-trackball. Didn't manage to get used to it, so its sitting idle.

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 16 May 2018, 05:29:22 »
Go back 15 years to ball mouse times, flip mouse and boom instant trackball.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 16 May 2018, 07:03:59 »
Go back 15 years to ball mouse times, flip mouse and boom instant trackball.

lies.. that didn't work , there was no top roller to hold the ball up, it'd just grind

Offline bmilcs

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:35:54 »
After looking at both mice a while, and struggling to finish my day, I ordered the Elecom Huge. I am hoping it's not as high profile as it seems.

I will most likely grab a few diff ones to test out side by side and return the losers ;)           
  
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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 16 May 2018, 17:16:19 »
Go back 15 years to ball mouse times, flip mouse and boom instant trackball.

lies.. that didn't work , there was no top roller to hold the ball up, it'd just grind

Not in zero gravity.


Offline emenelopee

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 16 May 2018, 21:16:47 »
Go back 15 years to ball mouse times, flip mouse and boom instant trackball.

lies.. that didn't work , there was no top roller to hold the ball up, it'd just grind

Not in zero gravity.

Yes in zero gravity. Zero gravity doesn't mean it floats up. You want gravity and low density object in heavy atmosphere for that.

[enter Uranus joke here]

I heart my Kensington Expert but the scroll wheel is scratchy. The LTrac has too few buttons and a too-far-up scroll wheel position (on paper, never tried one). I've been thinking about a Huge but need convincing before I cross the line.

If the new Logitechs have large balls, with a scroll wheel like the Expert, and come out soon I'm probably in.

Offline katushkin

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 16 May 2018, 21:47:08 »
I heart my Kensington Expert but the scroll wheel is scratchy. The LTrac has too few buttons and a too-far-up scroll wheel position (on paper, never tried one). I've been thinking about a Huge but need convincing before I cross the line.

I agree that looking at the LTrac it seems the scroll positioning is weird. But after just thinking about how my hand rests on mine, I've noticed that I have my hand almost cupped over the top of the whole device with the tip of my middle finger touching the scroll wheel, index finger on the left click and ring finger on the right click. I took some pictures for clarity:



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Offline davkol

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 02:48:22 »
The LTrac has too few buttons and a too-far-up scroll wheel position (on paper, never tried one).
L-Trac has three buttons + optionally two external.

The wheel position isn't really a problem (see katushkin's pics), the middle button can be a bit harder to find by touch, though.

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 03:38:26 »
Go back 15 years to ball mouse times, flip mouse and boom instant trackball.

lies.. that didn't work , there was no top roller to hold the ball up, it'd just grind

Not in gravity and low density object in heavy atmosphere.

Yes in zero gravity. Zero gravity doesn't mean it floats up. You want gravity and low density object in heavy atmosphere for that.

[enter Uranus joke here]

I heart my Kensington Expert but the scroll wheel is scratchy. The LTrac has too few buttons and a too-far-up scroll wheel position (on paper, never tried one). I've been thinking about a Huge but need convincing before I cross the line.

If the new Logitechs have large balls, with a scroll wheel like the Expert, and come out soon I'm probably in.

.... thats what i said  :blank:

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 06:33:59 »
I heart my Kensington Expert but the scroll wheel is scratchy. The LTrac has too few buttons and a too-far-up scroll wheel position (on paper, never tried one). I've been thinking about a Huge but need convincing before I cross the line.

I agree that looking at the LTrac it seems the scroll positioning is weird. But after just thinking about how my hand rests on mine, I've noticed that I have my hand almost cupped over the top of the whole device with the tip of my middle finger touching the scroll wheel, index finger on the left click and ring finger on the right click. I took some pictures for clarity:

Show Image


Show Image


Hrrrrrrmm..

This needs m0ar tenting.. at most 35 degrees on something this thick..


Also,  This seems the ideal size for a logitech mod up.. stick a logitech mouse in there for m0at accurate sensor.

What is the shape of the lens.

Offline bmilcs

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 07:29:37 »
I heart my Kensington Expert but the scroll wheel is scratchy. The LTrac has too few buttons and a too-far-up scroll wheel position (on paper, never tried one). I've been thinking about a Huge but need convincing before I cross the line.

I agree that looking at the LTrac it seems the scroll positioning is weird. But after just thinking about how my hand rests on mine, I've noticed that I have my hand almost cupped over the top of the whole device with the tip of my middle finger touching the scroll wheel, index finger on the left click and ring finger on the right click. I took some pictures for clarity:

Show Image


Show Image


Thanks for posting this.

What size hand do you have?

I have roughly 20.5cm/10cm hands; I wonder how that'd work with the LTrac.
  
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Offline katushkin

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 17 May 2018, 18:00:11 »
I heart my Kensington Expert but the scroll wheel is scratchy. The LTrac has too few buttons and a too-far-up scroll wheel position (on paper, never tried one). I've been thinking about a Huge but need convincing before I cross the line.

I agree that looking at the LTrac it seems the scroll positioning is weird. But after just thinking about how my hand rests on mine, I've noticed that I have my hand almost cupped over the top of the whole device with the tip of my middle finger touching the scroll wheel, index finger on the left click and ring finger on the right click. I took some pictures for clarity:

Show Image


Show Image


Thanks for posting this.

What size hand do you have?

I have roughly 20.5cm/10cm hands; I wonder how that'd work with the LTrac.

Fully stretched my right hand is 23cm from pinky to thumb tip and 20cm from tip of my middle finger to bottom of my palm
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Offline bmilcs

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 21 May 2018, 09:56:55 »


So far, so good.

A little awkward ergnomically speaking, and static friction is pretty high. I hope, with time, it'll smooth out.

I am going to most likely order an L-Trac soon as well and compare it side by side.
  
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Offline anatworkaccount

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 30 May 2018, 10:10:17 »
Interesting. I have a Kensington slim blade at the office. Certainly interested in hearing your comparison when you have the other in hand.

Online johngodsmith

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 07 June 2018, 04:24:38 »
You know I've never really had one of these but I feel like it'd be pretty useful

Offline Skaazi

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 08 June 2018, 14:01:07 »
Anyone have the Elecom Deft Pro? How is it?

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 21 June 2018, 23:34:22 »
Anyone have the Elecom Deft Pro? How is it?

I have the DEFT Pro for about a month.
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(a bit blurry  :blank: )

its shape is a bit... I don't know how to describe, in the first few days of use, I have pain in my index finger, I have to rotate the mouse around a bit so my finger won't feel pain. (I'm not sure if that's the case or it just I got used to it so my finger doesn't feel pain anymore)

about the buttons: I have to swap Right mouse and Fn2, it just my personal opinion.

the mouse works flawlessly out of the box and the latest version of software recognize it without problems.

so far, I have not needed to use the wire or recharge battery. I use this everyday at office.

about switching between wireless/bluetooth, I plug the wireless receiver on the desktop PC and bluetooth for my laptop.
- switching to Bluetooth: sometimes it's instantly, sometimes there is a delay, I don't know the problem is with the DEF Pro or my Laptop, the delay is also vary.
- switching to wireless: instantly.

conclusion: worth to upgrade from the old DEFT.

that's my experience with the DEFT Pro, hope this helps!  ;D
« Last Edit: Thu, 21 June 2018, 23:36:52 by Tom_Kazansky »
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 22 June 2018, 03:45:34 »
I'm a big fan of my Kensington Orbit w/ scroll ring.
I just got mine today... and this is going to be a harsh counter point.

I had an older Kensington Expert (?) (it was nice, but shaped like a box), used/owned a couple Logitech trackballs (my mom still has one of them), used a generic here and there and I just got one of the Orbits with scroll ring. It's the first Kensington product I've bought that I thought was GARBAGE and is one of the absolute worst trackballs I've ever used. Even after some work it still ranks near the bottom of my list.

Mine is used but so was almost every other trackball I've used or owned and even that doesn't explain some of the issues with it. The ball not spinning smooth was from gunk buildup, but the buttons creaked, squeaked and bound, and the ring wasn't much better. There's nothing between the ring and body and uses the same plastic on each half so it doesn't glide (should have used two different plastics for less friction) and has no dust seal so any dust that gets in and just grinds (this is a common problem). I cleaned out the ball rollers (plastic, not ceramic) and added some lube, then lubed the ring so it would glide instead of plastic on plastic grinding (and maybe flush the dirt out), but the buttons are where it gets really interesting.

I had to disassemble it and actually grind a teeny bit off of the tabs for clearance to make them smooth, now I know why they used Torqs screws  (too short of ones at that) to hold it together, they were hoping no one would look inside. Through hole components, including the chips, no Omron switches, and nothing securing them in place but the pins. I'm not trying to be snobbish, but considering there's no fancy buttons, and few injection molded parts I really expected this to be a bit better considering the age and price. I have 7 year old $20 wireless mice with better and more modern construction. I'm not saying it doesn't work but I was a bit shocked to see this type of construction in this day and age, even 7 years ago when this debuted that would have been very old construction.  I'm  kind of surprised a company in China still even makes through hole like this (they still sell this model!).

I know I'm being harsh, and it will work for what I intend to do with it (embed it in a cad specific mini keyboard), but I'm in a bit of shock at how bad it is compared to what I was expecting, especially considering how good my last one was and how good other Kensington stuff has been. This thing seems like it was engineered down to the 1000th of a penny by some bean counter who didn't care about the outcome. After all my work, it now works like I expected to get in the package, not how I expected it to work after I spent a half hour cleaning and lubing it.

Can you believe this was released in 2010, much less still being made?
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Offline tex_live_utility

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 10 July 2018, 09:05:46 »
I own these trackballs:

  • Kensington Expert
  • Elecom HUGE
  • Elecom DEFT Pro
  • Elecom DEFT

Preface: I have big palms and short wide fingers. People with long spider hands will probably have an easier time finding a trackball that works for them.

So far, I like the Kensington the best, as long as you have the wrist rest to go with it. The ball is huge, rolls smoothly, doesn't seem to get gunked up with finger dirt and dust so quickly, and falls out easily for when you do want to clean off the bearings (I still do it once a day). Some people rag on the scroll wheel for its loudness and scratchy feeling, but it's nicely tactile and I appreciate it. The ridged plastic on the scroll wheel can trap dirt and dust, so keep your hands and your desk clean unless you want to be picking it out with a toothpick. Most people here are probably already quite clean around their precious keyboards, so it's probably not an issue. It's a little hard to reach the button on the top right, and it's hard to reach the button on the top left without moving the mouse pointer a little by brushing the ball. But the overall experience is so damn comfortable that these things don't bother me, and I don't use those buttons that often anyway. The Kensington programming software is easy to use and installed on Windows 7 without difficulty. Make sure you get the palm/wrist rest included with this trackball.

I want to love the Elecom HUGE but I don't. My hands are too small. The left-click button is too far away, forcing me to stretch my thumb. It reminds me of the Ergodox - full of nice ideas, probably perfect for someone with big hands or long fingers, but not for me. It's reprogrammable, but I've never been able to get the Elecom software to recognize that I have an Elecom mouse plugged in, even though it's obviously plugged in and working. So I'm stuck with the default configuration, and it doesn't work for me. I also need to hold my hand very far up on the ball in order to reach the default right-click button. The scroll wheel is very far back, so when I'm holding my hand up forward the wheel is positioned somewhere in the middle of my thumb. It's too far back on my thumb to be easy for scrolling, so scrolling is actually uncomfortable on my already-stretched thumb. I actually still have very sensitive thumb joints after using an Ergodox for too long and giving myself some kind of mild RSI. I try to avoid thumb keys on keyboards now, and this mouse irritates those joints. The mouse is much more usable if you can prop it up at an angle, but I don't have a good wedge-shaped object for this purpose. Maybe a thin hard book might be stable enough. The ball itself is very smooth and pleasant to roll. However the fit is much tighter than the Kensington and as a result it is very susceptible to dirt and dust infiltration. Even after a few hours of use, the ball sticks a little and precise movements become impossible. Cleaning often is annoying. The Elecom does have nice features, like a switch on the bottom to control DPI and a toggle between low-power and high-power wireless modes. It also has a large palm rest area and comfortable neoprene-like padding. I got the wireless version and had no connectivity issues using it on low-power mode.

The Elecom DEFT Pro is a more comfortable design. Just about all the other problems with size and hand positioning are solved, in my opinion. The ball-rolling experience is not as smooth as the HUGE or the Kensington Expert, probably just because the ball is smaller and has less heft/mass/inertia. For that reason I'm not about to give up my Expert any time soon. But it's much more portable, and it has almost all the same buttons as the HUGE except for one extra function button. I really appreciate the fact that it's both wired and wireless, especially with the detachable micro-USB cable. The DEFT Pro also has nice accents like a soft, textured surface (not as squishy as the padding on the HUGE), contoured buttons on the right side for your fingers to sit in, and a cool bronze accent color on the scroll wheel. Being much smaller than the HUGE, it won't fully support your palm, and I highly recommend a separate wrist rest to go with it. You can't really "float" over this trackball because of the default button position, unless you reprogram them. The ball fit is very tight like the HUGE, but I haven't noticed quite as much sticking. The Elecom software won't recognize this one either. Also, my unit is defective (it stops responding intermittently) and I need to send it back to Amazon for a refund.

The Elecom DEFT is nice and compact, with some useful Fn buttons right next to the ball. It's very light and portable. The version I got was wired-only, with a fixed cable that I wish was detachable (to make it even more portable). The ball is lighter and smaller, more like something you'd see on a thumb trackball. It's better to use this one with just your index finger. The right side is contoured for your fingers to rest in, but because of the small size it lacks palm support and you pretty much need a wrist rest to use it comfortably, again because the way the buttons are positioned, making "floating" difficult. I use the Handstands bean bag wrist rest https://www.amazon.com/Handstands-Beaded-Ergonomic-Keyboard-Mouse/dp/B00M3BCPPC. The ball seems less sensitive to dirt than the other Elecom models. I like it, but the DEFT Pro is just a nicer product all around. This one is the lightest and smallest, so if that matters a lot to you go with this one. Otherwise the DEFT Pro is your best bet for traveling.

In conclusion: The Kensington Expert is great, but the scroll ring is polarizing and you might not like it. I personally love it because the ball-rolling experience is just so damn pleasant. Get the Elecom HUGE if you have big hands and/or long fingers, and don't mind cleaning it often. Get the Deft PRO if you don't want a massive ball, or you want something more portable. Get the Deft is you want to save some money and/or you care about your trackball being as small and light as possible without sacrificing features or comfort.

I hope to try a CST eventually so I can add it to this review.
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 July 2018, 09:09:48 by tex_live_utility »

Offline emenelopee

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Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 01 August 2018, 20:43:27 »
Is there any way to remap the buttons on the 4-button Kensington Expert without installing any new software or drivers? IT inexplicably thinks Trackballworks WILL CRASH THE SYSTEMS.

Offline davkol

  • Posts: 4994
Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 02 August 2018, 07:00:50 »
hardware converter w/ remapping in firmware

Offline typo

  • Posts: 889
Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 10 August 2018, 10:10:15 »
I so want a Trackball. I just can't make it work. They are simply too slow. I do not want to set Windows where it uses acceleration. Even though I do not game I build 3D models. If anyone knows any trick to make them faster I sure would like to know. I do not like rolling it 'round and 'round I want like a 1/8" Flick corner to corner. Why I am using a mouse and I figure I must be stuck with it if that is my desire?

Offline skang0601

  • Posts: 3
Re: Yo Trackballers: CST LTrac, Elecom Huge Or... ?
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 26 August 2018, 17:30:12 »
I went on a bit of a Trackball Safari recently and had a chance to try the following:

MX Master 2 (Not trackball, but was my main mouse before the safari)
Logitech Trackman Marble
Logitech Ergo Pro
Kensington Expert Pro
Kensington Slimblade
Elecom Deft Pro


I have fairly small hand FYI so you're mileage may vary but in terms of what I found most comfortable, I'd say it would be the Kensington Slimblade or Deft Pro. Here are the problems I've had with the other mice.

Logitech Trackman Marble:
Comfy but the lack of buttons made this unusable
Logitech Ergo Pro:
Very uncomfortable and gave me hand cramps, I don't think I'm suited for a thumb ball mouse especially one designed for larger hands. I had both of the tilt stand, but the more extreme angle stand was more comfortable but still caused hand cramps.
Kensington Expert Pro:
The mouse was too high causes wrist pains. Alleviated by a wrist pad but I found the scroll wheel unusable.
Kensington Slimblade:
Took a little while to adjust my hands comfortably with it. Some people may have issues with the scrolling implementation but I love it after getting used to it. This has become my work mouse.
Elecom Deft Pro:
Very nice and comfy but I found some of the button layout odd. It's good enough to be my home mouse however.