What's with all These Weird and Small Keyboard Layouts Lately?

[mattlach]

I'd been absent from these boards for several years and just logged back on, and boy, I barely recognize myself?

Whats up with all these TKL and 60% boards and other weirdo layouts?   How come people even like them?

For me it's all standard modern 104-key layout or I pass.



I don't even understand how anyone uses a keyboard without arrow keys and a numpad.   I use that **** every day, and would be horribly slowed down without a proper numpad for typing numbers.

So what is the draw of these things?  Why do people like them?

[portbaron]

The push has been to get more compact/symmetrical the last several years. They've even got boards smaller than 60% now (who needs a number row?). I'm waiting for the eventual 1 key keyboard to appear as the ultimate culmination for keyboard design.

I agree with you though. I use numpad, arrow keys, and even F row a lot. I've settled on full 1800s because you don't lose any keys but pull the mouse a few inches closer to your center. I'll pull out 75/65/60% boards for fun, and they have a clean look that is nice, but never when I actually have work to get done.

[Kavik]

It depends what you're doing. At work, I do find it hard to use anything smaller than full size or 1800 layout because I do like the numpad. And, no, a separate numpad is not the same; it defeats the purpose of muscle memory, and it can slide around.

Aesthetically, I like TKL the most, and I think it's still usable enough for most applications while saving some space.

I only have one keyboard smaller than this, a 65%, which still has arrow keys and most of the nav keys. I like using it when playing video games because it gives me a lot more room for my mouse. I don't understand how anyone can play games with a 104 key anymore; even if the desk is big enough, the distance between hands just feels awkward and uncomfortable. That said, 65% is fairly annoying to use at work.

I am intrigued by a lot of the odd and smallish layouts, but mostly for aesthetics.

[ghjim]

I'm on my second month into MKs, tried TKL and felt like part of me was missing so from that point on, 104 or no go.

[clappingcactus]

I'd been absent from these boards for several years and just logged back on, and boy, I barely recognize myself?

Whats up with all these TKL and 60% boards and other weirdo layouts?   How come people even like them?

I've been into mechs since the mid-2000s and even then the HHKB and Deck Francium 87 were highlights of the hobbyist community.

How long ago is 'several years' because I think the last time smaller keyboards weren't popular it was the 80s.

[Lanrefni]

I tried the Levinson which is a small split ortho board for a while and I just couldn't adapt to using layers for numbers and function keys,so I stepped up to it's much bigger brother which has all the keys-



Soldering 108 diodes and switches was tedious,but worth it. 

[mattlach]

I tried the Levinson which is a small split ortho board for a while and I just couldn't adapt to using layers for numbers and function keys,so I stepped up to it's much bigger brother which has all the keys-

Show Image

Soldering 108 diodes and switches was tedious,but worth it.  :D

That looks interesting, but the key spacing seems off.   A is directly beneath Q, when it usually is slightly offset to the right.

I don't know if I could get used to that.

[mattlach]

I'd been absent from these boards for several years and just logged back on, and boy, I barely recognize myself?

Whats up with all these TKL and 60% boards and other weirdo layouts?   How come people even like them?

I've been into mechs since the mid-2000s and even then the HHKB and Deck Francium 87 were highlights of the hobbyist community.

How long ago is 'several years' because I think the last time smaller keyboards weren't popular it was the 80s.

Well, maybe I don't recall the small form factor keyboards from back then.  Iv'e been using Model M's since they were new, but I strayed away fro several years during the 90's, only getting back to it the early ought when I found a Lexmark Model M for $9 on eBay.  I forget when I was here last.  It's been a while, but not THAT long...

[stoic-lemon]

That you need all those keys is fine. But you have no idea how people can be ok with accessing the arrow keys or F row from a function layer? People have different requirements and preferences for all kinds of things.

[mattlach]

It depends what you're doing. At work, I do find it hard to use anything smaller than full size or 1800 layout because I do like the numpad. And, no, a separate numpad is not the same; it defeats the purpose of muscle memory, and it can slide around.

Aesthetically, I like TKL the most, and I think it's still usable enough for most applications while saving some space.

I only have one keyboard smaller than this, a 65%, which still has arrow keys and most of the nav keys. I like using it when playing video games because it gives me a lot more room for my mouse. I don't understand how anyone can play games with a 104 key anymore; even if the desk is big enough, the distance between hands just feels awkward and uncomfortable. That said, 65% is fairly annoying to use at work.

I am intrigued by a lot of the odd and smallish layouts, but mostly for aesthetics.

I don't play games as much as I used to, but when I do, I use a modified version of the early Quake controls.

There is no "WASD" for me.   I use the arrow keys (though left and right strafes, not turns like in those early games)

I then remap all of the important keys around the arrow keys.  Delete (on the insert, Home, Page Up, Delete, End Page Down grouping) typically reloads.   OPage Down is zoom/iron sights.

This way I can push my keyboard to the left, and still have my right hand with the mouse pretty close.

(I also invert mouse, and use mouse2 as my jump button.  I know this seems  crazy now, but it was the norm back in the day)

[mattlach]

That you need all those keys is fine. But you have no idea how people can be ok with accessing the arrow keys or F row from a function layer? People have different requirements and preferences for all kinds of things.

Different needs are all good and well, but retraining muscle memory from the standard keyboard layout since -  what, (1983?) - is what is the biggest problem for me.

I do use my many more keys regularly, but the "breaking the muscle memory" issue is the biggest problem, I think.

[Zeimus]

Well I could get a numpad to use with a tkl or smaller layout keyboard.  Its the same but its not permanently attached, right?

[noisyturtle]

i don't get it either, 40% and smaller just feels like something out of a crakerjack box

[StickyBlueJuice]

TKL or bust!
I honestly can't go back to any of the smaller layouts I don't think.
I have 1 pc in the house where space is limited and I am considering purchasing a HHKB for that.
But if I have the space, TKL it is!

[frydaja]

Whats up with all these TKL and 60% boards and other weirdo layouts?   How come people even like them?

I use a numpad, navpad and function keys quite a lot. 60% would be okay if I'd type a lot, but I use the keyboard to navigate through Explorer and sometimes even the web browser. And I use the numpad because of the calculator.

Having to press a key I use quite a lot.. I'd not bother that much if I could press the key with one hand.

A fullsize keyboard that's way too big is a bigger issue when doing usual computing (internet etc) and typing, and not gaming. I know about the "all the free space" argument, but you can earn some free space by moving the keyboard to the side. When doing usual computing, typing on an angle is weird and probably unhealthy and having keyboard centered feels bad when using the mouse.

That said, I'd still not go for navpad over a function key. I think XT layout is the best, because navpad is kind of redundant, because it's in the navpad even on today's keyboards and the function key is already there and it's toggleable.


40%.. I feel like it's for those one percent of people who never use numbers and type everything using words. Leaving off the number row for such a tiny decrease in size is.. questionable.

[killyou]

I don't ever use numpad, I very rarely use F keys and other crap. I find 60% layout superior because I don't have to move my hands and everything that I don't use regularly is easily available through Fn layer. I don't use Caps Lock at all so I have secondary Function key there so it makes it very easy to use arrow cluster hidden in Fn layer. I don't want to type any other way than with my 60% keyboard.

[funderburker]

Mmm, to each his own.

I'm not against full-sized boards or TKLs (visually I actually love TKLs) but I got into mechs because of 40% keyboard - it was cheaper to make my own then to order a TKL or purchase a overpriced gamer-themed mechanical board locally.

For my personal use 60% does the job just fine as I've never actually really used a numpad for stuff like data entry anyways. F rows are something I need to use time to time so for the times I need them I'm fine with them being in Fn layer. Most days I use TMO50 just cause I can shove it in my backpack easily. And I'm pretty sure I will never have a full-sized board, TKL is the biggest I'd go.

[Findecanor]

Some people never learned to use the numpad — and for those people the numpad is superfluous. It's as simple as that.

The 40% keyboards (and thereabouts) is something I don't really understand how people can be content with though.
Everything but English alphas on other layers ...

[funderburker]

Some people never learned to use the numpad — and for those people the numpad is superfluous. It's as simple as that.

The 40% keyboards (and thereabouts) is something I don't really understand how people can be content with though.
Everything but English alphas on other layers ...

Well, latvian letters like ēūīāšģķļčņ are all written by pressing ' before it, that's how Microsoft implemented our alphabet. I can use AltGr of course but it's not that comfortable and haven't met anyone who used that keymapping. But I agree that a lot of languages could be uncomfortable with something smaller than 60%.

For the record I'm not against bigger boards but just embrace sub60% layouts if people are ready to get used to them. It depends solely on ones preference. I can't imagine people doing data entry or finances for example on a small board but for programming it's not that bad if you have sane keymapping. Also anything less than TKL is pretty much useless for people that have to share a keyboard - my wife probably will never understand how to use a 60%.

[kgolden]

I prefer 60s. Everything I do can easily be done with that size keyboard. I personally dont mind using layers to access other functions.

[mattlach]

That said, I'd still not go for navpad over a function key. I think XT layout is the best, because navpad is kind of redundant, because it's in the navpad even on today's keyboards and the function key is already there and it's toggleable.

I would be able to get by without a numpad, but I wouldn't like it.  I could always use the top row numvers.   I wouldnt like it.  It would be much slower to deal with numbers, but I COULD do it.

I don't understand - however -  how anyone can type without the arrow keys and the home, end, delete pgup and pgdn above them.

How else do you navigate around your text when typing?    Constabtly grasping your mouse?  That seems very inefficient, slow and awkward.

I couldn't imagine typing anything at all without them.

[funderburker]

That said, I'd still not go for navpad over a function key. I think XT layout is the best, because navpad is kind of redundant, because it's in the navpad even on today's keyboards and the function key is already there and it's toggleable.

I would be able to get by without a numpad, but I wouldn't like it.  I could always use the top row numvers.   I wouldnt like it.  It would be much slower to deal with numbers, but I COULD do it.

I don't understand - however -  how anyone can type without the arrow keys and the home, end, delete pgup and pgdn above them.

How else do you navigate around your text when typing?    Constabtöy grasping your mouse?  That seems very inefficient, slow and awkward.

I couldn't imagine typing anything at all without them.

Have you tried putting arrows and nav cluster in Fn layer near homerow? Ever since I tried HHKB arrows, I use them on every board I have. Sorry but how long have you been out of this hobby and have you read something about smaller boards? Of course no one could use a board without any arrows, that'd be pointless.

[kurplop]

I find the variety interesting. I have found 60 to 70 keys a good balance between functionality and minimal movement, but would never say that it’s right for everyone. I think it has a lot to do with how the keyboard is used.
The fact that many people who get used to the smaller boards never go back to full boards suggests that it is more than a passing fad.

[mattlach]

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Have you tried putting arrows and nav cluster in Fn layer near homerow? Ever since I tried HHKB arrows, I use them on every board I have. Sorry but how long have you been out of this hobby and have you read something about smaller boards? Of course no one could use a board without any arrows, that'd be pointless.

I guess that could work once you get used to it, but I think I would find myself being awkward and discombobulated if I tried it.

The only boards I've ever used with Fn layers were certain compact laptops, and I always hated the experience.

Keyboards aren't necessarily a hobby for me.  Computers are.   I just appreciate having a quality input device when I use them.

I research them once every five years or so when its time to buy a new one.   I didn't even realize that people built their own boards until right now.

[zslane]

Non-standard layouts (especially on sub-TKL boards) are popular with people who really like making their custom keycap purchases as expensive and inconvenient as possible.

[frydaja]

Have you tried putting arrows and nav cluster in Fn layer near homerow? Ever since I tried HHKB arrows, I use them on every board I have. Sorry but how long have you been out of this hobby and have you read something about smaller boards? Of course no one could use a board without any arrows, that'd be pointless.

I don't touchtype, but my hand is close to that position. That said, my problem is that the physical key is mising. I use nav keys all the time, and having to reach for an additional key while looking for Home or even arrows would slow me down. With XT layout, I can leave the NumLock off most of the time and toggle NumLock when I need to type numbers.

Also, the FN key feels too far from the navkeys. I'd prefer a keyboard that'd have something useful instead of a right Shift, but no one sells that, right?

[Lanrefni]

Non-standard layouts (especially on sub-TKL boards) are popular with people who really like making their custom keycap purchases as expensive and inconvenient as possible.

You aren't kidding,finding a keycap set with 1u mods is a pain in the butt,finding 1u mods with profiles that match my layout in anything other than DSA/XDA/G20 is pretty much impossible. 

[CChocobo]

Former full size and TKL user, recent Iris convert here.

Initially I hated not having the extra keys, but as I've spent more time with this board it has become a large part of what I like about it. By forcing me to dive into QMK and rebind things so I have stuff like } and [, it has allowed me to really hone in on an efficient layout unique to me.

That's now the draw for me, I have an even more sensible custom layout for my use that allows minimal hand travel with no compromise in function. Most things are even easier than a full size by virtue of re-positioning and double function tap dance. It also forced me to learn how to touch type correctly, which was an added benefit.

[scoopbb]

started with ergodox but realized i didnt use all the keys on the board. iris is the lowest i can go personally. in general preonic is the perfect size for me. nyquist with a nice case or an atreus62 would prolly be ideal.

i like 60% boards too. personally i dont use the numpad at all, and i can layer arrows or bind them to bottom right keys that i never use.

tkl are fine, i just prefer smaller keyboards at home, dont have a ton of desk space. qmk makes everything simple, just takes a few days for your brain to convert over...at least for me.

[chyros]

I've been asking this for years xD . I don't get it either!

[no, the other guy]

For me it's all standard modern 104-key layout or I pass.

You should try a 122-key layout.

Also, I totally plusone your question. I mean, people who buy an actual keyboard never do that because of a lack of space. I never saw a picture of a barely fitting 60%-or-less keyboard, they all have more than enough free room on all sides. Do people want to travel with their keyboard all day? Everything else makes no sense. And they even make it worse to look at with that OLKB hype. Seriously, other people pay women to whip them. Just saying.

[Leslieann]

I'm with OP.
I use a TKL, and I have a separate numpad for those rare times I am doing tons of numbers work, but usually a TKL is fine. I could stand to shave a few select keys (working on that!) but for the most part I use almost everything on the board and can't imagine trying to add function layers, especially for things like the arrow keys, I use them entirely too much.

I get the idea of small (leaves more room for the mouse and clutter), but you reach a point where it can become impractical. I experienced it a bit of it with the Magicforce 68 because it was missing the Fkeys but I only had to start looking at remapping firmware to realize my GH60 was not going to work at all. There's entirely too many keyboard shortcuts needed for the programs I use that trying to get everything mapped would become a bit silly.

[chyros]

Apart from my normal keyboard, I use a macropad and even bought another separate numpad as well. Although some small form factors are worse than others, I don't think any of them are a genuine substitute for a fullsize.

I should add that I don't like windows keys.

[Gati]

Unless you work with the nav cluster or numpad, those keys are useless (excl. the arrow keys)

[Entropia]

What I find really unneccesary is the nav cluster. It makes keyboards wider without a reason because it's much easier to use the numpad to browse a text or a webpage. It feels natural for me to use the numpad cursors together with the keys on the corners to move along and between lines. I also like the enter key on the numpad because I sometimes just move my hand from the mouse and use my thumb to click that enter key. For gaming it's also a great solution, as somebody above already suggested. I hate the missaligned wasd and the absurd standard that has been created around it. Also, if you need to input numbers, just press the numlock and the keys behave differently. Function keys are also important for me. I don't think I could ever get used to pressing a Fn combination for basic and daily tasks such as update or rename. Other function keys are quite useless for me and that's why I use scripts to give them interesting tasks such as closing folder windows, extracting usb devices, etc. I really don't understand why to remove this row of keys from a board since they do not make boards wider (ergonomic problem for some) and they are in a place that is not obstructive for typing or whatever. That said, I'm now using a 1800 layout (Leopold), which is really good since you have all you need from a 100% board but it's almost the width of a tenkeyless (and you get rid of the redundant nav cluster).

[mattlach]

What I find really unneccesary is the nav cluster. It makes keyboards wider without a reason because it's much easier to use the numpad to browse a text or a webpage. It feels natural for me to use the numpad cursors together with the keys on the corners to move along and between lines. I also like the enter key on the numpad because I sometimes just move my hand from the mouse and use my thumb to click that enter key. For gaming it's also a great solution, as somebody above already suggested. I hate the missaligned wasd and the absurd standard that has been created around it. Also, if you need to input numbers, just press the numlock and the keys behave differently. Function keys are also important for me. I don't think I could ever get used to pressing a Fn combination for basic and daily tasks such as update or rename. Other function keys are quite useless for me and that's why I use scripts to give them interesting tasks such as closing folder windows, extracting usb devices, etc. I really don't understand why to remove this row of keys from a board since they do not make boards wider (ergonomic problem for some) and they are in a place that is not obstructive for typing or whatever. That said, I'm now using a 1800 layout (Leopold), which is really good since you have all you need from a 100% board but it's almost the width of a tenkeyless (and you get rid of the redundant nav cluster).

I had not heard of the Leopold 1800 layout.   It looks interesting.

It's not for me, as I want to be able to use both my numerical keypad and Ins,Home,PgUp,Del,End,PgDn without constantly having to hit num-lock, but I can see how some would like it.

I find Fn, Num Lock, Scroll Lock type modifiers to be a nuisance.   I'd rather never have to use one, except for switching between upper and lower case letters.

[no, the other guy]

That's only one of the many advantages of the XT layout: no double nav cluster.

[zslane]

The nav cluster is too ingrained into my muscle memory. For me, having navigation functions on the numpad is pointless.

And while I may not use all the Fn keys, or use the numpad constantly, I still like full-size keyboards for their capacity to display more of a beautiful keycap set than TKL or smaller boards. That alone makes them worth having on my desk.

[chyros]

That's only one of the many advantages of the XT layout: no double nav cluster.

IMO; XT > TKL

[ThoughtArtist]

That's only one of the many advantages of the XT layout: no double nav cluster.

IMO; XT > TKL

Some of us who use a mouse would rather have ergonomics and a separate numpad if needed

[seville57]

I'd been absent from these boards for several years and just logged back on, and boy, I barely recognize myself?

Whats up with all these TKL and 60% boards and other weirdo layouts?   How come people even like them?

For me it's all standard modern 104-key layout or I pass.

Show Image

I don't even understand how anyone uses a keyboard without arrow keys and a numpad.   I use that **** every day, and would be horribly slowed down without a proper numpad for typing numbers.

So what is the draw of these things?  Why do people like them?

I don't like them at all, I own 1 TKL (Ducky Shine 3 ISO/Nordic, the "Butterboard") but I never use it. Playin games so I'm usin 108 keys.

[tp4tissue]

The Cause...    YOUNG people..


It takes TIME, to realize, as cute as it looks, it's not practical..

It takes yet MORE TIME, to realize keyboards are h8-ful things that are iconic of modern IT-Slavery.


Once a person gets Old enough and Wise enough in front of their keyboards, Bam.... Stockholm syndrome,   And here we are.. Gekhak.

[StickyBlueJuice]

The Cause...    YOUNG people..


It takes TIME, to realize, as cute as it looks, it's not practical..

It takes yet MORE TIME, to realize keyboards are h8-ful things that are iconic of modern IT-Slavery.


Once a person gets Old enough and Wise enough in front of their keyboards, Bam.... Stockholm syndrome,   And here we are.. Gekhak.

You crack me up somtimes TP. 

[daerid]

I generally don't enjoy full size keyboards since it forces the keyboard to be so far to the right it gets in the way of my mousepad. My last job was working on Windows / .NET, so arrow keys were a must. Nowadays I'm strictly in the Mac/*nix world so I can get by with only a 60%, although I still prefer the TKL layout as a good compromise being utility and compactness.

[sinusoid]

I'm waiting for the eventual 1 key keyboard to appear as the ultimate culmination for keyboard design.

Isn't that where we came from?


From my point of view, keyboard firmware that allows layers and custom functions is much more efficient than having more physical switches to press. 
You can have a numpad, you can have the F keys, you can have software-specific shortcuts, half-keyboard typing, and all that without ever leaving the home row.

I don't usually see this implemented in small layout keyboards, but... yeah, my point is that reduced size doesn't necessarily impede functionality.

[...] so far to the right it gets in the way of my mousepad.

This is probably the best political statement of 2019 so far

[mattlach]

I generally don't enjoy full size keyboards since it forces the keyboard to be so far to the right it gets in the way of my mousepad.

Uhh...   Just push it a little to the left?

I don't understand the issue here.

[ander]

I generally don't enjoy full size keyboards since it forces the keyboard to be so far to the right it gets in the way of my mousepad.

Uhh...   Just push it a little to the left? ... I don't understand the issue here.

Really! I never got that particular bit of fussiness either.

Okay, TKLs make sense if if you never use the number pad. I miss it right away, as I can no longer use Alt+#### codes to enter special characters like dashes, bullets, or accented letters (as IBM, in their wisdom, decided not to make them work with the regular number keys). But I realize that's not important to everyone. (Ha, I just used a dash, Alt+0151.) Some TKLs have embedded numpads that are activated when you press NumLock, so those are okay, but not all do.

Otherwise, changing your whole layout just so your mouse can be a bit closer? Even to the point of requiring you to hold modifiers to do things like moving your cursor, or jumping from one place in a line or document to another? My grandma would've called that "penny-wise and pound-foolish".

I realize there's a certain charm to using a keeb so small you can practically slip it into your shirt pocket. But yeesh, at the cost of making typing so laborious? Go figure.

Maybe it's just a fad. People see people with keebs like those, and they think that if they use them too, they'll be cool. But real coolness is independence from what others think and do, not copying them—so I've never gotten that, either.  :?O

[zizard]

fad

complicate ur life just to have a cute keeb, and typically people post their tiny keebs on giant desk mats with ridic free space all around

[appaboy]

That's only one of the many advantages of the XT layout: no double nav cluster.

IMO; XT > TKL

That's a first... I love numpad myself but I wouldn't go that far

[4sStylZ]

I love a keyboard when I do not have to make long move to reach the keys, that’s why I love compact boards.
I love to use all my hand and use my palm on modificator like Fn, Super or Ctrl.
I want to use all my fingers with a symetric frequency so that’s why I use a Dvorak based layout (Bépo). It’s also not normal for me to have the pinky who need to move and twist for reaching Enter or del, that why I love to have enter and del / backspace on the middle of the board.
I love to have an integrated numpad directly on the right hand, but I hate to have to reach it by moving the hand. So I can accept to use modificator for getting access to the numpad.

So we can play a game.
Can you tell me what keyboard I have ? An ergo one for sure…

Typematrix 2030