If you made a clone of yourself specifically to kill it, would that be murder?

[noisyturtle]

The clone has all your genetic material, and has been advanced aged to adulthood overnight. But you made it in your lab with the specific purpose of killing it, would you consider that murder?

[ArchDill]

[tp4tissue]

Humans have value because of the great cost at which they are produced..

So, Yes, it's murder, because it's a major waste of resources.  Not for any moral reasons.

Doing what you suggest is equivalent to mining bitcoins.  Either task has wasted the efforts of all lifeforms which sustain and inhabit this planet.

[noisyturtle]

By your logic then, tearing down a building is murder. I'm not talking about material cost or resources, assume it's free through some magic, it doesn't matter in this hypothetical. I am talking morally, is it murder to kill a clone of yourself?

[tp4tissue]

By your logic then, tearing down a building is murder. I'm not talking about material cost or resources, assume it's free through some magic, it doesn't matter in this hypothetical. I am talking morally, is it murder to kill a clone of yourself?

It's not immoral to murder any person, as long as the greater good can be objectively calculated.

Would you kill hitler ?

That's precisely what WAR is.

Destroying Buildings IS MASS MURDER.

What was the greater loss on Sept, 11th..  The building or 2000 people..

If you'd total the man hours and material cost required to produce those buildings, we lost WAY MORE than 2000 people on that one.

[fer.real]

A better question is whether it is suicide or not.

[fer.real]

Humans have value because of the great cost at which they are produced..

So, Yes, it's murder, because it's a major waste of resources.  Not for any moral reasons.

Doing what you suggest is equivalent to mining bitcoins.  Either task has wasted the efforts of all lifeforms which sustain and inhabit this planet.

By your logic then, tearing down a building is murder. I'm not talking about material cost or resources, assume it's free through some magic, it doesn't matter in this hypothetical. I am talking morally, is it murder to kill a clone of yourself?

It's not immoral to murder any person, as long as the greater good can be objectively calculated.

That's precisely what WAR is.

Destroying Buildings IS MASS MURDER.

What was the greater loss on Sept, 11th..  The building or 2000 people..

If you'd total the man hours and material cost required to produce those buildings, we lost WAY MORE than 2000 people on that one.

You are creeping me the F out.

[tp4tissue]

A better question is whether it is suicide or not.

Depends on the precision in which we can evaluate the event, it may or may not be suicide.

[tp4tissue]

You are creeping me the F out.

You are young, this is to be expected.

Have you seen that anime, what was it,  with the alchemy , fullmetal alchemist.

The philosopher's stone in the show was made from PEOPLE.

That is not a horror film trope,   It's a purposeful allegory to the reality of our existence.


Everything we own, is an exchange on the expended LIVES of previous and current lifeforms (including humans + dinosaurs + trees).


Think about it this way,  Every time you eat fried chicken,  You're eating Dead-Bodies. 

[noisyturtle]

tp, it is a very simple question. 'Is killing a clone of yourself murder?' Why are you avoiding the point? Are you hiding something that I don't already know?

It's not for any greater good, it's just for your own entertainment. Would it be any different in your eyes murdering a clone of Hitler, rather than yourself? Assuming the clone has all of Hitler's previous memories but never actually did anything wrong, he just thinks he did those things.

[tp4tissue]

tp, it is a very simple question. 'Is killing a clone of yourself murder?' Why are you avoiding the point? Are you hiding something that I don't already know?

It's not for any greater good, it's just for your own entertainment. Would it be any different in your eyes murdering a clone of Hitler, rather than yourself? Assuming the clone has all of Hitler's previous memories but never actually did anything wrong, he just thinks he did those things.

Any waste of resources which can total up to approximately 1-person's life's worth, IS MURDER.

[noisyturtle]

But it's MY DNA and MY clone. If I want to torture and kill myself I should have the right to do so! Especially if I literally created it for that specific purpose.

[tp4tissue]

But it's MY DNA and MY clone. If I want to torture and kill myself I should have the right to do so! Especially if I literally created it for that specific purpose.

You have the capacity, but not the right.

Using Laws, you can argue deeds whichever way you like


But the fact remains, NOTHING binds you to laws besides your OWN agreement.

That is to say, you are not truly answerable to anyone besides an (almighty type entity).


We have laws, because they form a model of an interactive society. By using this model, we achieve better efficiency as a lifeform.

The laws themselves are meaningless, only its purpose is of interest, TO Facilitate LIVING.


Your violation of the law is ultimately independent of the act of wasting resources. Should you choose to kill either yourself or a clone, we apply a general descriptor to you as wasteful, because better options most likely exist,  That's all that the model does.

[fanpeople]

But it's MY DNA and MY clone. If I want to torture and kill myself I should have the right to do so! Especially if I literally created it for that specific purpose.

Murder is only murder if you get caught.

Hint hint.

[tp4tissue]

But it's MY DNA and MY clone. If I want to torture and kill myself I should have the right to do so! Especially if I literally created it for that specific purpose.

Murder is only murder if you get caught.

Hint hint.

You'll never catch me copper.

[Leslieann]

Once created, your clone is now a living being and diverging further from you every second thereafter, becoming it's own person. A lot of what we are is made up of things we experience and theres now diverges. Twins share DNA, it doesn't mean they are one person.  It may look like you, act like you, and have your DNA but it is not you, so it's murder.

As for wanting to torture yourself...
It would probably suck if it turned out you were the clone. Or your clone managed to get the upper hand and tell everyone that you were the clone. You wanted to be doing the torture, not be tortured, the same would likely apply to the clone.

If we ever reach the point of being able to do this, we will have to offer clones the right to personhood if they become conscious, but we will probably also need a way to prove which is which, though doing so could be complicated. I also suspect we will have full body replacements before we ever reach full body/brain cloning ability.  Why make a clone for medical purposes when it requires making/maintaining a clone, harvesting parts surgically then inserting them surgically when you could simply just make a new/better body or part. Do you really want to clone your eyeballs that slowly drift toward poor vision over the next few decades or would you prefer one that is going to have better than 20/20 for a longer period for less. I'll gladly take bionic legs and arms and.. You know what, just give me the works. At some point having a "natural body" will probably be seen as a sign of prosperity because you could afford the clone, even if it's not as good.

[noisyturtle]

Well I suppose it would come down to Clone Rights, and the laws surrounding self-cloning ownership. I am assuming if you quick-grow a clone it would not have the intelligence of an adult, just the body of one. Then, if you use your own incubator and DNA material does that give you ownership over your creation, or does the human DNA automatically give it the same rights as a natural-born human as soon as it opens it's beady little eyes?

[Leslieann]

Well I suppose it would come down to Clone Rights, and the laws surrounding self-cloning ownership. I am assuming if you quick-grow a clone it would not have the intelligence of an adult, just the body of one. Then, if you use your own incubator and DNA material does that give you ownership over your creation, or does the human DNA automatically give it the same rights as a natural-born human as soon as it opens it's beady little eyes?

It's still a living, breathing, thinking human being, if only a child.
That makes it slavery.

[Coreda]

I wonder what you'd consider it to be if the clone managed to kill you. In your hypothetical you're equivalent outside of perhaps mental development, which does changes things considerably. Though does one identical human being have a greater right to life than another based on mental development alone?

If accelerated aging were possible though how far-fetched would the implantation of entire experiences and memories. This is beginning to sound rather Metal Gear-ish.

[noisyturtle]

If my own undeveloped clone killed me I would liken it to something like a construction worker getting crushed by the scaffolding they built. If that were to be the case I would assume the the fault would be my own mistakes due to neglecting some safety procedure.

[fanpeople]

If my own undeveloped clone killed me I would liken it to something like a construction worker getting crushed by the scaffolding they built. If that were to be the case I would assume the the fault would be my own mistakes due to neglecting some safety procedure.

A robust risk assessment is key to the successful construction and destruction of ones own clone. noisyturtle 2019. 

[JP]

I thought this was a TP4 thread. Maybe NT is a TP4 clone or is it the other way around 

[tp4tissue]

I thought this was a TP4 thread 

[JP]

Once created, your clone is now a living being and diverging further from you every second thereafter, becoming it's own person. A lot of what we are is made up of things we experience and theres now diverges. Twins share DNA, it doesn't mean they are one person.  It may look like you, act like you, and have your DNA but it is not you, so it's murder.

Reminds me of a quote by Heraclitus who said, “No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.”

[Findecanor]

If I want to torture and kill myself I should have the right to do so!

If you kill yourself, your soul will spend eternity in Hell!

(If tp4 can troll, then so can I)

Murder is only murder if you get caught.

Murder is only murder if not sanctioned by the government.

[9999hp]

Legally, probably murder, especially if it can act as you in any capacity with the world around you. Otherwise, it will kind of depend on your own morality. Some determine that as material/energy investment as we've seen above and others on maybe a spiritual virtuosity.

 If it's brain dead, can't act at all, then it's just a meat bag; however tasteless it might be to destroy yourself it might be. I don't have any particular moral qualms with that. Again, if it has any sentience I would say it is murder as someone mentioned above, your timelines are now delineating an and exist separately from one another.

[xtrafrood]

What if ... in a neighborhood near you.. a botched murder lights the fuse that is... the Noisy twins. When they are not out shooting blockbuster commercials.. They are hidding in the shadows.. Poised to capture any non-twin that happens by.  Will there be betrayal?  Or will the Noisy Twins work together to paint the town red.. with the blood of random strangers?  Tune in this fall for an all new: The Noisy Twin Effect 9/8c.

[fohat.digs]

I also suspect we will have full body replacements before we ever reach full body/brain cloning ability.  Why make a clone for medical purposes when it requires making/maintaining a clone, harvesting parts surgically then inserting them surgically when you could simply just make a new/better body or part.

That is probably where we are headed.

Larry Niven wrote an interesting series of stories in the 1970s revolving around "Gil Hamilton" which skated around some of this.

Reminds me of a quote by Heraclitus who said, “No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.”

Excellent observation, but the OP suggested "aging to adulthood overnight", presumably while not conscious, so there would not have been any opportunity for mental development.

[Leslieann]

I wonder what you'd consider it to be if the clone managed to kill you. In your hypothetical you're equivalent outside of perhaps mental development, which does changes things considerably. Though does one identical human being have a greater right to life than another based on mental development alone?

If accelerated aging were possible though how far-fetched would the implantation of entire experiences and memories. This is beginning to sound rather Metal Gear-ish.

The clone killing you or vice versa is the same regardless, one killed another living human.  It's the only way to make it work legally and ethically because every other method results in slavery, or potential for exploitation. The moment it leaves the lab someone will exploit it to make money.



The memories would need to be fairly complete. I honestly think this is part of the problem A.I. has, it has nowhere to start. If you know computer history, one of the most difficult tasks was teaching the system to read a disk drive, while reading a disk drive.  Once they do learn to learn this way though, watch out because they can learn as a collective in real time. The first ones will be slow, and get progressively faster and better. The Ai you need to worry about is not the "robot dog" that walks, runs and opens doors, or even Watson, which scours the internet for answers. No, the one to fear is the one learning how to learn and then learns about all the human atrocities we've committed and still are. There will likely be a point where it probably deems us a virus or plague that needs to be eliminated and we can only hope that it learns to look beyond this. So far our attempts have not worked, as evidenced by Bing being racist.

There is so much more to this but way beyond the scope of this discussion. .

[JP]

The Ai you need to worry about is not the "robot dog" that walks, runs and opens doors

I beg to differ. I have terrors after reading Fahrenheit 451. Unlike a normal dog, the mechanical hound in the story is said to have eight legs and shoots morphine and procaine into the body of those who he catches, leaving them incapacitated.

[Leslieann]

I beg to differ. I have terrors after reading Fahrenheit 451. Unlike a normal dog, the mechanical hound in the story is said to have eight legs and shoots morphine and procaine into the body of those who he catches, leaving them incapacitated.

I meant the robot dog from Boston Dynamics.
http://time.com/5155273/boston-dynamics-spotmini-robot-dog/

[fanpeople]

The Ai you need to worry about is not the "robot dog" that walks, runs and opens doors

I beg to differ. I have terrors after reading Fahrenheit 451. Unlike a normal dog, the mechanical hound in the story is said to have eight legs and shoots morphine and procaine into the body of those who he catches, leaving them incapacitated.

all i want in life is a dog that will fill me with morphine.

[noisyturtle]

The Ai you need to worry about is not the "robot dog" that walks, runs and opens doors

I beg to differ. I have terrors after reading Fahrenheit 451. Unlike a normal dog, the mechanical hound in the story is said to have eight legs and shoots morphine and procaine into the body of those who he catches, leaving them incapacitated.

all i want in life is a dog that will fill me with morphine...

rectally.
 

[JP]

rectally.

Well in the story the Hound does have a four-inch hollow steel needle which protrudes from its proboscis to stab its victim so I guess that would be doable.

[xtrafrood]

Sorry guise.  I should have brought a better TV pilot to the table.  Next time I'll just bring some pizza.

[JP]

Sorry guise.  I should have brought a better TV pilot to the table.  Next time I'll just bring some pizza.

Wait, you are saying there is no pizza? 

[xtrafrood]

Sorry guise.  I should have brought a better TV pilot to the table.  Next time I'll just bring some pizza.

Wait, you are saying there is no pizza? 

...

[JP]

If you could clone of yourself would any replicants be undocumented and illegal just like the folks who cross the border?

Likely the only legal clones would have memories implanted by the corporate overloads and any illegals would be hunted down like in a scene from Blade Runner.

[tp4tissue]

If you could clone of yourself would any replicants be undocumented and illegal just like the folks who cross the border?

Likely the only legal clones would have memories implanted by the corporate overloads and any illegals would be hunted down like in a scene from Blade Runner.

If actual _Fast_ cloning was possible,  The first thing the wealthy elites would do, is unleash a doomsday virus to kill off the majority of _Free Thinkers_..

Clone replacement slaves,  annnnnnnd be done with the whole free-will thing.


But all this is m00t,  because AI is the future, AI-spawn will replace flesh-humanity as the next stage in our evolution. There's no denying or stopping it,   our Path is Clear and Obvious.

Skynet is better in every way..

Don't get me wrong, Tp4, too possess the general desire/ biological momentum to remain human.

HOWEVER,  intellectually, there's no logical reason to NOT integrate with skynet..


Keep in mind also,   Skynet can either go the way of Terminator style , OR , it could well go ZERG style..


IMHO, either one is fine..

[fanpeople]

The Ai you need to worry about is not the "robot dog" that walks, runs and opens doors

I beg to differ. I have terrors after reading Fahrenheit 451. Unlike a normal dog, the mechanical hound in the story is said to have eight legs and shoots morphine and procaine into the body of those who he catches, leaving them incapacitated.

all i want in life is a dog that will fill me with morphine...

rectally.
 
(Attachment Link)

Im still down.

[noisyturtle]

If you could clone of yourself would any replicants be undocumented and illegal just like the folks who cross the border?

Likely the only legal clones would have memories implanted by the corporate overloads and any illegals would be hunted down like in a scene from Blade Runner.

What if you made two dozen clones of yourself, then sent them all off to different countries around the world to be raised in different cultures? Then when they reach age 40 they all receive a letter telling them they were part of a massive cloning experiment. Included in the letter is a plane ticket, and they all meet up with each other. All different but the same.

[absyrd]

The second that clone comes into existence, it has its own environmental experience. You aren't killing yourself. Actually, the clone should be allowed to kill you for even starting to think you should be able to kill it.

[noisyturtle]

The second that clone comes into existence, it has its own environmental experience. You aren't killing yourself. Actually, the clone should be allowed to kill you for even starting to think you should be able to kill it.

Why would clone rights supersede human rights as opposed to being equal? Are you implying clones are not capable of evil?

[meiosis]

I'd give my clone equal footing in our duel, we fight to death winner take all.

[tp4tissue]

I'd give my clone equal footing in our duel, we fight to death winner take all.

What if your clone was skinnier and better looking ?

Then the logical thing to do would be to kill oneself ?

[rarar]

Entropys got me now.

[sandertristan]

hahaha...i find this thread interesting...why make a clone of yourself to kill it??
self-hate? i do not think that would be murder though...

[fanpeople]

self-hate?

You are probably spot on.

Speaking of noisy, haven't seen him post for a bit.

Noisy, you still with us? I hope you found a job.

[Findecanor]

It is already considered murder to kill a clone made from the combination of the DNA from yourself and another person.

The only difference is that technology is starting to make it possible to omit the other person.

[tp4tissue]

self-hate?

You are probably spot on.

Speaking of noisy, haven't seen him post for a bit.

Noisy, you still with us? I hope you found a job.

Noisy will be fine.. he's got internet..