Author Topic: Vintage Blacks are a placebo, prove me wrong. (Read 17551 times)

demik · « **on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 19:28:50 »

Especially if a) they are "new" (unused) switches. and b) you spring swap with new korean switches.

also stickers are a placebo. the only thing that has been done to boards that makes a difference is lubing it. and those dental bands. everything else is just a hivemind following what the koreans say.

i can believe there is a difference between older blacks if you keep the original spring and it has seen some use and it has changed due to wear and tear. but anything else and you're just fooling yourself.

so all you vintage black lovers, prove me wrong.

lcs · « **Reply #1 on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 19:32:10 »

Quote from: demik on Sat, 12 October 2013, 19:28:50

so all you vintage black lovers, prove me wrong.

Impossible, you're the teller of truths. Therefore, it must be true.

demik · « **Reply #2 on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 19:33:21 »

and that is why you're my favorite Brazilian!

lcs · « **Reply #3 on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 19:34:17 »

How many do you know?

demik · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 19:34:35 »

a brazillion of them!

lcs · « **Reply #5 on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 19:37:40 »

esoomenona · « **Reply #6 on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 19:41:51 »

You can drive a Bentley, if only in your mind.

demik · « **Reply #7 on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 19:43:30 »

Quote from: esoomenona on Sat, 12 October 2013, 19:41:51

You can drive a Bentley, if only in your mind.

im driving a bentley right meow actually!

IvanIvanovich · « **Reply #8 on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 20:15:24 »

The older ones are WAY smoother feeling and a little lighter. If you go and modify them at all, then yes you just made it largely irrelevant. I have bought NOS G80 with vintage era blacks and I can definitely tell. It's not like night and day but there is some difference.

Linear clears and whites are still better.

zoolzoo · « **Reply #9 on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 21:41:26 »

Quote from: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 12 October 2013, 20:15:24

The older ones are WAY smoother feeling and a little lighter. If you go and modify them at all, then yes you just made it largely irrelevant. I have bought NOS G80 with vintage era blacks and I can definitely tell. It's not like night and day but there is some difference.

Linear clears and whites are still better.

Due to the spring only?

Photekq · « **Reply #10 on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 21:47:54 »

Normal blacks - scratchy when you press down. very noticeable when you push slowly, a bit noticeable when you push normally.
Vintage blacks (on a 1501-had, not sure how much it was used) - a little bit better, but not really noticeable
Nixdorf blacks - PERFECTLY smooth. No scratch whatsoever. Lubing literally doesn't make them feel any different.. They're already perfect. However, using korean springs (i was using 55g) make them make a weird noise. I found you can remedy this by putting grease (i used gpl205) on the bottom of the springs.

I wouldn't use vintage blacks over blacks. The difference simply ain't big 'nuf. Nixdorf blacks though.. there's no denying they are DEFINITELY different from normal/vintage blacks.
Stickers? Yeah, they're placebo. There's no denying it. I only use 'em cause I think they look cool (even though you practically never see them)

Photoelectric · « **Reply #11 on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 21:59:13 »

My vintage Blacks from WhiskeyTango's WYSE terminal boards are much smoother than those installed into the LZ-GH I just got (unsure of the source of those switches, but it was assembled by Alaric). So I'm not sure what to think there. Both are installed with 62g Korean springs. I did select the smoothest stems out of WT's switches to install, but on average, they are smoother. With that said, I got a few gritty switches with my vintage Black batch: cleaned completely, even after lubricating. I swapped those out right away.

rowdy · « **Reply #12 on:** Sat, 12 October 2013, 23:01:10 »

Actually scratchy blacks - this describes it perfectly!

I still like my blacks though

sherryton · « **Reply #13 on:** Sun, 13 October 2013, 00:15:32 »

The Mcrip effect!

Tony · « **Reply #14 on:** Sun, 13 October 2013, 02:53:20 »

Ripster, you can now be happy that you have a great pupil.

All keyboards are the same unless felt otherwise.

davkol · « **Reply #15 on:** Sun, 13 October 2013, 05:37:40 »

I've never considered linear MX switches to be scratchy, but... it's a completely different story when compared to vintage blacks side by side. I've even tried blind testing to be sure.

Hell, I should put them on my ergodox.

meiosis · « **Reply #16 on:** Sun, 13 October 2013, 06:11:15 »

I think we should start a club where we segregate non-white switches

Moosecraft · « **Reply #17 on:** Sun, 13 October 2013, 07:03:20 »

Quote from: Meiosis on Sun, 13 October 2013, 06:11:15

I think we should start a club where we segregate non-white switches

Definitely, there have been so many variations over the years.

demik · « **Reply #18 on:** Sun, 13 October 2013, 07:04:25 »

now, how many of you have tried both without knowing there is a "difference"?

ive tried new and old switches and i truthfully feel no difference. no linear switch has felt scratchy at all.

and what exactly makes it scratchy? the plastic used on the stem? the housing? the spring?

The_Beast · « **Reply #19 on:** Sun, 13 October 2013, 07:07:36 »

TIL demik can spell "placebo"

czarek · « **Reply #20 on:** Mon, 14 October 2013, 02:37:12 »

I don't have any new MX Black currently but I've got MX Reds and vintage blacks. Vintage switches feel way smoother than reds, pretty much in Topre territory in this regard. Reds feel scratchy when I switch from Topre, vintage blacks, feel buttery smooth.

esoomenona · « **Reply #21 on:** Wed, 16 October 2013, 08:45:31 »

Quote from: czarek on Mon, 14 October 2013, 02:37:12

I don't have any new MX Black currently but I've got MX Reds and vintage blacks. Vintage switches feel way smoother than reds, pretty much in Topre territory in this regard. Reds feel scratchy when I switch from Topre, vintage blacks, feel buttery smooth.

Try putting the springs from the Blacks into the Reds. Perhaps it's the weight that makes you think you feel what you do.

Dubsgalore · « **Reply #22 on:** Wed, 16 October 2013, 08:51:17 »

I thought that the bottom housing was different in vintage blacks, and that the stem was that of a different plastic or material, and the spring was a little different and worn too...all combined to make something much smoother and better...

Stickers are a 'placebo', but i think that was obvious, i mean, there is no honest point to them, they just look cool.

It's not even funny how much of a difference lubing makes, to linears, makes them feel amazing and velvety and super smooth (y)

Nixdorf are another story, i'll get to test that out eventually

saturnotaku · « **Reply #23 on:** Wed, 16 October 2013, 08:54:34 »

A couple folks have posted videos on YouTube of them typing on lubed vintage black switches, and you can hear the difference if you listen to a comparable "standard" black. The modified switches sound like raindrops pattering on your roof.

esoomenona · « **Reply #24 on:** Wed, 16 October 2013, 08:58:21 »

Quote from: saturnotaku on Wed, 16 October 2013, 08:54:34

A couple folks have posted videos on YouTube of them typing on lubed vintage black switches, and you can hear the difference if you listen to a comparable "standard" black. The modified switches sound like raindrops pattering on your roof.

Hmm...

Computer-Lab in Basement · « **Reply #25 on:** Wed, 16 October 2013, 09:01:19 »

Quote from: esoomenona on Wed, 16 October 2013, 08:58:21

Quote from: saturnotaku on Wed, 16 October 2013, 08:54:34
A couple folks have posted videos on YouTube of them typing on lubed vintage black switches, and you can hear the difference if you listen to a comparable "standard" black. The modified switches sound like raindrops pattering on your roof.

Hmm...

And I thought I was a master at stating the obvious...

terran5992 · « **Reply #26 on:** Wed, 16 October 2013, 09:07:07 »

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement on Wed, 16 October 2013, 09:01:19

Quote from: esoomenona on Wed, 16 October 2013, 08:58:21
Quote from: saturnotaku on Wed, 16 October 2013, 08:54:34
A couple folks have posted videos on YouTube of them typing on lubed vintage black switches, and you can hear the difference if you listen to a comparable "standard" black. The modified switches sound like raindrops pattering on your roof.

Hmm...

And I thought I was a master at stating the obvious...

Lube , if you know what i mean

Hellmark · « **Reply #27 on:** Wed, 16 October 2013, 12:47:12 »

This is somewhat off topic, but anyone here think that new blues are a bit crappy?

Last night I was at Best Buy, and for the first time I got to see demo units of mechanical keyboards. They had a Razor BWU 2013 with Blues, and a logitech G710+ with browns. The Razor was really scratchy feeling, and the noise was horrible. I mean, I am use to stock buckling springs, and this thing seemed louder. The Browns were a bit light for my taste, but felt smooth. I didn't know if all blues where that way, or it is more of the Razor being a POS.

SpAmRaY · « **Reply #28 on:** Wed, 16 October 2013, 12:49:50 »

I'm wondering if there is something different about newer switches because I keep hearing people talk about scratchy switches but I've never had any that were scratchy.

esoomenona · « **Reply #29 on:** Wed, 16 October 2013, 12:50:45 »

I figured it out: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49765.msg1079200#msg1079200

Dubsgalore · « **Reply #30 on:** Wed, 16 October 2013, 12:53:08 »

what...

anways, i'm taking photos for sprit later today of some vintage stems I own

http://www1.kbdmania.net/xe/photo/7015418

rowdy · « **Reply #31 on:** Wed, 16 October 2013, 21:13:18 »

Quote from: SpAmRaY on Wed, 16 October 2013, 12:49:50

I'm wondering if there is something different about newer switches because I keep hearing people talk about scratchy switches but I've never had any that were scratchy.

I have an older board with MX blacks (from a terminal) and a newer QFR also with blacks. I've always had the feeling that the older board is smoother than the QFR, and the term "scratchy" sort of describes how the QFR feels when compared to the older board.

Masterchief79 · « **Reply #32 on:** Thu, 17 October 2013, 05:15:01 »

I had a G80-1000HDD with vintage blacks from 1987 and they definitely feel totally different from modern blacks. Why? No idea. Multiple reasons I guess. Keep in mind a 26 year old keyboard probably has been used a lot, too.

Just saying they are feeling so much smoother when bottoming out.

agodinhost · « **Reply #33 on:** Thu, 17 October 2013, 06:48:18 »

Quote from: lcs on Sat, 12 October 2013, 19:34:17

How many do you know?

me?

tinco · « **Reply #34 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 05:44:49 »

So is vintage blacks a thing? I recently bought a G80-1000 HDU off an online marketplace and I totally hate it.

What is the appeal? I mean there not as mushy as rubberdome, but it's close. There's not satisfaction to the press at all and the press is very heavy.

Compared to my Filco with MX Browns the G80-1000 is terrible, I was planning to harvest the keycaps and throw the board away.

Am I perhaps doing it wrong? Does it need cleaning/lubing and some getting used to?

iAmAhab · « **Reply #35 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 06:10:04 »

Different strokes man, different strokes.

agodinhost · « **Reply #36 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 06:16:22 »

Quote from: Photekq on Sat, 12 October 2013, 21:47:54

Normal blacks - scratchy when you press down. very noticeable when you push slowly, a bit noticeable when you push normally.
Vintage blacks (on a 1501-had, not sure how much it was used) - a little bit better, but not really noticeable
Nixdorf blacks - PERFECTLY smooth. No scratch whatsoever. Lubing literally doesn't make them feel any different.. They're already perfect. However, using korean springs (i was using 55g) make them make a weird noise. I found you can remedy this by putting grease (i used gpl205) on the bottom of the springs.

I wouldn't use vintage blacks over blacks. The difference simply ain't big 'nuf. Nixdorf blacks though.. there's no denying they are DEFINITELY different from normal/vintage blacks.
Stickers? Yeah, they're placebo. There's no denying it. I only use 'em cause I think they look cool (even though you practically never see them)

"Nixdorf blacks"

Gosh! I didn't even know it existed ...
Where I can get this one?

SpAmRaY · « **Reply #37 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 06:18:33 »

Quote from: tinco on Tue, 29 October 2013, 05:44:49

So is vintage blacks a thing? I recently bought a G80-1000 HDU off an online marketplace and I totally hate it.

What is the appeal? I mean there not as mushy as rubberdome, but it's close. There's not satisfaction to the press at all and the press is very heavy.

Compared to my Filco with MX Browns the G80-1000 is terrible, I was planning to harvest the keycaps and throw the board away.

Am I perhaps doing it wrong? Does it need cleaning/lubing and some getting used to?

Everyone going to have a different response to any switch whether they are tactile, linear or clicky. Sounds like linear switches just aren't something you like.

Photekq · « **Reply #38 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 09:15:47 »

Quote from: agodinhost on Tue, 29 October 2013, 06:16:22

"Nixdorf blacks"
Gosh! I didn't even know it existed ...
Where I can get this one?

From old nixdorf pcbs

Oobly · « **Reply #39 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 10:12:52 »

tp did some interesting testing of old and new blacks. His conclusion: The main difference is in the casings. Old ones feel smoother (on average) because the casings where the sliders go are smoother. Could be from wear or from manufacture.

Still, there is a difference at least. I know that keycaps can make a big difference to feel, too. Heavy caps will make the key feel "less scratchy" and smoother than light caps. Maybe a lot of the older boards had heavier caps, too?

P.S. - those Nixdorf switches look awesome with the clear tops!

Hellmark · « **Reply #40 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 10:20:16 »

The keycap weight makes sense. When I got to try out blues recently, they were on a BWU, and they had super light caps. Keys felt scratchy as hell. I wanted to run back home and cradle a model M.

Linkbane · « **Reply #41 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 10:51:38 »

Quote from: tinco on Tue, 29 October 2013, 05:44:49

So is vintage blacks a thing? I recently bought a G80-1000 HDU off an online marketplace and I totally hate it.

What is the appeal? I mean there not as mushy as rubberdome, but it's close. There's not satisfaction to the press at all and the press is very heavy.

Compared to my Filco with MX Browns the G80-1000 is terrible, I was planning to harvest the keycaps and throw the board away.

Am I perhaps doing it wrong? Does it need cleaning/lubing and some getting used to?

I personally would rather type on RD than Blacks, they just don't feel right to me. All the lightness and soft touch I'm used to with Reds made heavy, but it's all personal preference, I know people find Blues annoying and scratchy also.

JPG · « **Reply #42 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 10:52:22 »

Vintage blacks are not placebo, they are swag!

Hellmark · « **Reply #43 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 11:07:45 »

Quote from: Linkbane on Tue, 29 October 2013, 10:51:38

I personally would rather type on RD than Blacks, they just don't feel right to me. All the lightness and soft touch I'm used to with Reds made heavy, but it's all personal preference, I know people find Blues annoying and scratchy also.

I am kinda in the same boat, I hate linear switches. Need some sort of tactile feedback, even if it is from a rubberdome.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #44 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 11:25:27 »

Quote from: tinco on Tue, 29 October 2013, 05:44:49

So is vintage blacks a thing? I recently bought a G80-1000 HDU off an online marketplace and I totally hate it.

What is the appeal? I mean there not as mushy as rubberdome, but it's close. There's not satisfaction to the press at all and the press is very heavy.

Compared to my Filco with MX Browns the G80-1000 is terrible, I was planning to harvest the keycaps and throw the board away.

Am I perhaps doing it wrong? Does it need cleaning/lubing and some getting used to?

It is a "THING" but not for the unsubstantiated reasons that have been tossed around... as in "Vintage Black is made from MAGICALLY Charged plastic infused with Unicorn Tears...""

Switch smoothness is in my guess-timate 90% due to wearing/ heavy use..

I believe that MOST people who are complaining about scratchiness in Cherry mx are just novice users who don't type enough to reach the "Threshold" of switch smoothness.

Photoelectric · « **Reply #45 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 11:30:28 »

Having tried slightly scratchy vintage Blacks now, at least compared to my ridiculously smooth hand-selected vintage Blacks from WiskyTango's WYSE terminals (I had a larger batch and selected the smoothest switches for my TKL set up from those), I should say that just using the term "vintage MX Blacks" does not imply or guarantee butter-smooth switches. The difference between my vintage Blacks from used WYSE terminals and vintage Blacks that came with my LZ-GH is quite noticeable. I've since swapped it to the WYSE vintage Blacks, and the feel is buttery smooth again. That has nothing to do with lubrication either--I've tested it. I am guessing the Blacks from LZ-GH were not well worn, despite their age.

esoomenona · « **Reply #46 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 11:32:29 »

All Blacks are "vintage" Blacks now. It's a buzzword. It's designed to create a selling point, and push linear switches which are primarily crappy. Being that there is no truth in it, people actually fall victim to the placebo effect, and feel the got a deal.

Photoelectric · « **Reply #47 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 11:34:49 »

I sort of agree, but these are definitely "vintage" with large Cherry logos. But in my limited experience, even they can be less than smooth. So just buying "vintage Black" doesn't guarantee the smoothest experience. I've found that gritty switches cannot be "fixed" with lube. They can be helped, but they won't magically become smooth--that will happen with physical wear.

Hellmark · « **Reply #48 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 11:39:56 »

For me though, I kinda hate having to deal with a break-in period. If a keyboard feels like crap from the get go, then I'll not want to use it long enough to break it in.

SpAmRaY · « **Reply #49 on:** Tue, 29 October 2013, 11:41:11 »

perhaps we need an automated jig set up to depress switches to smooth them out?

News:

Author Topic: Vintage Blacks are a placebo, prove me wrong. (Read 17551 times)