My Unfortunate Transaction with Fragil1ty

[crimsonTofu]

I was really hesitant to make this post because I love the GeekHack / mechanical keyboard community but I believe I have held off for too long.
I don't post very often but I have been lurking through this forum for about a year. I have had many successful transactions on this forum with international and local members (I am from Canada) but this post is to put GH's Fragil1ty into the spotlight. Back in December, I purchased a KUL ES-87 from him for $114 USD. He never gave me a tracking number, he only told me that he sent it out and it should be with me within 2-3 weeks. When I didn't receive it, I messaged him once more. He said something went wrong during the shipping process and that they sent the keyboard back to him. He asked if I wanted him to send it back to me or if I wanted a full refund. I decided I wanted a refund because it was the holiday season and I shouldn't be splurging too much. Since then I still have not received a refund despite messaging him numerous times afterward. I really didn't want to make this post because he was such a great guy while we were making the deal but he isn't replying to me anymore so this had to be done. I'm aware there isn't anything anyone can really do for me, I just wanted to let you all know of my current situation.
Here is a link to my proof of payment as well as some of the PM's between Fragil1ty and myself: http://imgur.com/a/JJ7HZ
As you can see from the last picture, the last time he PM'd me was on February 15th and he has yet to get back to me.

[HPE1000]

So let me get this straight. He says he CANNOT send you the refund because he needs to spend it on bills? And yet he makes a post on the 15th of this month about how he is going to buy a nearly $300 monitor with birthday money?

That's sure nice of him.......


Hope you can figure something out, was that a goods invoice? I would think about disputing the transaction if I were you.

[tp4tissue]

So let me get this straight. He says he CANNOT send you the refund because he needs to spend it on bills? And yet he makes a post on the 15th of this month about how he is going to buy a nearly $300 monitor with birthday money?

That's sure nice of him.......


Hope you can figure something out, was that a goods invoice? I would think about disputing the transaction if I were you.

no one said nothing about bills..

[HPE1000]

So let me get this straight. He says he CANNOT send you the refund because he needs to spend it on bills? And yet he makes a post on the 15th of this month about how he is going to buy a nearly $300 monitor with birthday money?

That's sure nice of him.......


Hope you can figure something out, was that a goods invoice? I would think about disputing the transaction if I were you.

no one said nothing about bills..

last picture on the imgur link

[DrHubblePhD]

I am still confused, mods feel free to correct me but isnt posting PMs and or your own private information against TOS?

[billnye]

So let me get this straight. He says he CANNOT send you the refund because he needs to spend it on bills? And yet he makes a post on the 15th of this month about how he is going to buy a nearly $300 monitor with birthday money?

That's sure nice of him.......


Hope you can figure something out, was that a goods invoice? I would think about disputing the transaction if I were you.

no one said nothing about bills..

Did you bother to read the pms in the imgur album? It clearly mentions them there

[tp4tissue]

So let me get this straight. He says he CANNOT send you the refund because he needs to spend it on bills? And yet he makes a post on the 15th of this month about how he is going to buy a nearly $300 monitor with birthday money?

That's sure nice of him.......


Hope you can figure something out, was that a goods invoice? I would think about disputing the transaction if I were you.

no one said nothing about bills..

last picture on the imgur link

Oh I, C..

but he doesn't have the money, regardless of the bills is the takeaway..

So.. just give fragility some more time..  He seems fairly upstanding from all of our interactions on this forum.

[crimsonTofu]

So let me get this straight. He says he CANNOT send you the refund because he needs to spend it on bills? And yet he makes a post on the 15th of this month about how he is going to buy a nearly $300 monitor with birthday money?

That's sure nice of him.......


Hope you can figure something out, was that a goods invoice? I would think about disputing the transaction if I were you.

no one said nothing about bills..

He mentions his bills in the last picture. There is another PM he sent me which explicitly states he could not give me my refund yet because of his bills but I decided to leave that one out. I understand that he has bills to pay but looking at what HPE1000 said about the monitor kind of ticks me off. No I don't believe it was a goods invoice.

[billnye]

So essentially guys, it was my birthday yesterday and I've been eyeing up this monitor: http://www.amazon.com/Asus-VG248QE-24-Inch-LED-Lit-Monitor/dp/B00B2HH7G0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1426445419&sr=8-1&keywords=Asus+VG248QE+24-inch for quite some time now.

Now i've heard that the transition from 60hz to 120/144hz is rather good, especially for games such as CS:GO (which I play a lot of, especially surrounding the competitive scene). Now, what I don't want to happen is for me to go out and spend a lot of money on a monitor and for the upgrade to not be worth it. I'm all for buying expensive upgrades for my computer (hardware or peripheral based), but if it's only going to be a slight upgrade, then I don't think it's entirely worth it.

[DrHubblePhD]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

[SpAmRaY]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68374.0

[DrHubblePhD]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

[hwood34]

BRING ON THE WITCH HUNT EXTRAVAGANZA

[SpAmRaY]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

[DrHubblePhD]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

Well it seems then that he isnt full of mal-intent. He clearly DID intend on selling the board. I am not going to mention the morality of his spending habits, but I doubt he is doing this all just to scam this user. As I said, I find it deeply worrying that the community uses these means to root out poor situations in our community instead of first going to leadership or talking with others privately.

[tbc]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

Well it seems then that he isnt full of mal-intent. He clearly DID intend on selling the board. I am not going to mention the morality of his spending habits, but I doubt he is doing this all just to scam this user. As I said, I find it deeply worrying that the community uses these means to root out poor situations in our community instead of first going to leadership or talking with others privately.

this was done through classifieds?

doesn't that mean he explicitly SHOULD NOT go to the mods and admins?

[DrHubblePhD]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

Well it seems then that he isnt full of mal-intent. He clearly DID intend on selling the board. I am not going to mention the morality of his spending habits, but I doubt he is doing this all just to scam this user. As I said, I find it deeply worrying that the community uses these means to root out poor situations in our community instead of first going to leadership or talking with others privately.

this was done through classifieds?

doesn't that mean he explicitly SHOULD NOT go to the mods and admins?

I dont understand your meaning, what is your basis?

[crimsonTofu]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

Well it seems then that he isnt full of mal-intent. He clearly DID intend on selling the board. I am not going to mention the morality of his spending habits, but I doubt he is doing this all just to scam this user. As I said, I find it deeply worrying that the community uses these means to root out poor situations in our community instead of first going to leadership or talking with others privately.

No, I do not believe Fragil1ty meant for this to happen. I honestly believe he is a stand-up guy. The intention of this post was not to make him out as a scammer. As for leadership and talking with others privately, I did message him about two weeks ago and still have not received an answer.

[tbc]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

Well it seems then that he isnt full of mal-intent. He clearly DID intend on selling the board. I am not going to mention the morality of his spending habits, but I doubt he is doing this all just to scam this user. As I said, I find it deeply worrying that the community uses these means to root out poor situations in our community instead of first going to leadership or talking with others privately.

this was done through classifieds?

doesn't that mean he explicitly SHOULD NOT go to the mods and admins?

I dont understand your meaning, what is your basis?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56284.0

In accordance with the site's Terms of Service, Moderators will not step in to mediate transactions gone bad, however if you wish to report something you see that is against the forum’s Terms of Service and the guidelines in this post, please do so via the “Report to Moderator” button. (Example)

GEEKHACK.ORG ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY FOR LOSSES RELATED TO OR RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM OR FOR ANY TRANSACTION RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM.

Caveat emptor (Buyer Beware) <- Wikipedia link.

[SpAmRaY]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

Well it seems then that he isnt full of mal-intent. He clearly DID intend on selling the board. I am not going to mention the morality of his spending habits, but I doubt he is doing this all just to scam this user. As I said, I find it deeply worrying that the community uses these means to root out poor situations in our community instead of first going to leadership or talking with others privately.

Sadly these threads are necessary from time to time.

[DrHubblePhD]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

Well it seems then that he isnt full of mal-intent. He clearly DID intend on selling the board. I am not going to mention the morality of his spending habits, but I doubt he is doing this all just to scam this user. As I said, I find it deeply worrying that the community uses these means to root out poor situations in our community instead of first going to leadership or talking with others privately.

this was done through classifieds?

doesn't that mean he explicitly SHOULD NOT go to the mods and admins?

I dont understand your meaning, what is your basis?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56284.0

In accordance with the site's Terms of Service, Moderators will not step in to mediate transactions gone bad, however if you wish to report something you see that is against the forum’s Terms of Service and the guidelines in this post, please do so via the “Report to Moderator” button. (Example)

GEEKHACK.ORG ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY FOR LOSSES RELATED TO OR RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM OR FOR ANY TRANSACTION RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM.

Caveat emptor (Buyer Beware) <- Wikipedia link.

look man lets calm down. I am not saying that we should go whining to the mods saying "I want my money back, get me my money back." I know that if I sent a note to Hoff or any other admin saying "I have had a bad experience with a user who hasnt provided me a refund, what do you think should be my plan of action?" or something to that effect Im sure I could get a thoughtful response.

[SpAmRaY]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

Well it seems then that he isnt full of mal-intent. He clearly DID intend on selling the board. I am not going to mention the morality of his spending habits, but I doubt he is doing this all just to scam this user. As I said, I find it deeply worrying that the community uses these means to root out poor situations in our community instead of first going to leadership or talking with others privately.

this was done through classifieds?

doesn't that mean he explicitly SHOULD NOT go to the mods and admins?

I dont understand your meaning, what is your basis?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56284.0

In accordance with the site's Terms of Service, Moderators will not step in to mediate transactions gone bad, however if you wish to report something you see that is against the forum’s Terms of Service and the guidelines in this post, please do so via the “Report to Moderator” button. (Example)

GEEKHACK.ORG ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY FOR LOSSES RELATED TO OR RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM OR FOR ANY TRANSACTION RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM.

Caveat emptor (Buyer Beware) <- Wikipedia link.

look man lets calm down. I am not saying that we should go whining to the mods saying "I want my money back, get me my money back." I know that if I sent a note to Hoff or any other admin saying "I have had a bad experience with a user who hasnt provided me a refund, what do you think should be my plan of action?" or something to that effect Im sure I could get a thoughtful response.

More than likely a mod would just refer to TOS, if they even respond.

[DrHubblePhD]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

Well it seems then that he isnt full of mal-intent. He clearly DID intend on selling the board. I am not going to mention the morality of his spending habits, but I doubt he is doing this all just to scam this user. As I said, I find it deeply worrying that the community uses these means to root out poor situations in our community instead of first going to leadership or talking with others privately.

this was done through classifieds?

doesn't that mean he explicitly SHOULD NOT go to the mods and admins?

I dont understand your meaning, what is your basis?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56284.0

In accordance with the site's Terms of Service, Moderators will not step in to mediate transactions gone bad, however if you wish to report something you see that is against the forum’s Terms of Service and the guidelines in this post, please do so via the “Report to Moderator” button. (Example)

GEEKHACK.ORG ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY FOR LOSSES RELATED TO OR RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM OR FOR ANY TRANSACTION RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM.

Caveat emptor (Buyer Beware) <- Wikipedia link.

look man lets calm down. I am not saying that we should go whining to the mods saying "I want my money back, get me my money back." I know that if I sent a note to Hoff or any other admin saying "I have had a bad experience with a user who hasnt provided me a refund, what do you think should be my plan of action?" or something to that effect Im sure I could get a thoughtful response.

More than likely a mod would just refer to TOS.

An ounce of kindness goes a long ways, a nice note asking an honest question will receive attention from my experience. There is no reason for us to portray the mods as rulers. They too are members of our community, they are willing to contribute and give advice like the rest of us.

[HPE1000]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

Well it seems then that he isnt full of mal-intent. He clearly DID intend on selling the board. I am not going to mention the morality of his spending habits, but I doubt he is doing this all just to scam this user. As I said, I find it deeply worrying that the community uses these means to root out poor situations in our community instead of first going to leadership or talking with others privately.

this was done through classifieds?

doesn't that mean he explicitly SHOULD NOT go to the mods and admins?

I dont understand your meaning, what is your basis?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56284.0

In accordance with the site's Terms of Service, Moderators will not step in to mediate transactions gone bad, however if you wish to report something you see that is against the forum’s Terms of Service and the guidelines in this post, please do so via the “Report to Moderator” button. (Example)

GEEKHACK.ORG ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY FOR LOSSES RELATED TO OR RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM OR FOR ANY TRANSACTION RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM.

Caveat emptor (Buyer Beware) <- Wikipedia link.

look man lets calm down. I am not saying that we should go whining to the mods saying "I want my money back, get me my money back." I know that if I sent a note to Hoff or any other admin saying "I have had a bad experience with a user who hasnt provided me a refund, what do you think should be my plan of action?" or something to that effect Im sure I could get a thoughtful response.

More than likely a mod would just refer to TOS.

An ounce of kindness goes a long ways, a nice note asking an honest question will receive attention from my experience. There is no reason for us to portray the mods as rulers. They too are members of our community, they are willing to contribute and give advice like the rest of us.

Isn't that exactly what you just implied? If that is the case, what help would you get specifically talking to a mod rather than anyone else on this website?

[sethk_]

This thread isn't a whine post, but a post to say that maybe we should think twice about dealing with Fragility

[SpAmRaY]

To OP and anyone else reading one thing to learn here is don't pay as gift.

[DrHubblePhD]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

Well it seems then that he isnt full of mal-intent. He clearly DID intend on selling the board. I am not going to mention the morality of his spending habits, but I doubt he is doing this all just to scam this user. As I said, I find it deeply worrying that the community uses these means to root out poor situations in our community instead of first going to leadership or talking with others privately.

this was done through classifieds?

doesn't that mean he explicitly SHOULD NOT go to the mods and admins?

I dont understand your meaning, what is your basis?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56284.0

In accordance with the site's Terms of Service, Moderators will not step in to mediate transactions gone bad, however if you wish to report something you see that is against the forum’s Terms of Service and the guidelines in this post, please do so via the “Report to Moderator” button. (Example)

GEEKHACK.ORG ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY FOR LOSSES RELATED TO OR RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM OR FOR ANY TRANSACTION RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM.

Caveat emptor (Buyer Beware) <- Wikipedia link.

look man lets calm down. I am not saying that we should go whining to the mods saying "I want my money back, get me my money back." I know that if I sent a note to Hoff or any other admin saying "I have had a bad experience with a user who hasnt provided me a refund, what do you think should be my plan of action?" or something to that effect Im sure I could get a thoughtful response.

More than likely a mod would just refer to TOS.

An ounce of kindness goes a long ways, a nice note asking an honest question will receive attention from my experience. There is no reason for us to portray the mods as rulers. They too are members of our community, they are willing to contribute and give advice like the rest of us.

Isn't that exactly what you just implied? If that is the case, what help would you get specifically talking to a mod rather than anyone else on this website?

They are guaranteed sources of experience and knowledge relating to the site. They are easy for new users to find as well. Sure if you have a friend who has been on GH for a while, talk to them!

I am going to stop speaking on behalf of the moderators, if one of them would like to comment.

[SpAmRaY]

Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user? Perhaps we stop this witch hunt nonsense and allow these things to go up with the moderators first.

He sold it again already to lechner

And its still up on classifieds? Has Lechner received the board?

I posted link above

Well it seems then that he isnt full of mal-intent. He clearly DID intend on selling the board. I am not going to mention the morality of his spending habits, but I doubt he is doing this all just to scam this user. As I said, I find it deeply worrying that the community uses these means to root out poor situations in our community instead of first going to leadership or talking with others privately.

this was done through classifieds?

doesn't that mean he explicitly SHOULD NOT go to the mods and admins?

I dont understand your meaning, what is your basis?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56284.0

In accordance with the site's Terms of Service, Moderators will not step in to mediate transactions gone bad, however if you wish to report something you see that is against the forum’s Terms of Service and the guidelines in this post, please do so via the “Report to Moderator” button. (Example)

GEEKHACK.ORG ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY FOR LOSSES RELATED TO OR RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM OR FOR ANY TRANSACTION RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM.

Caveat emptor (Buyer Beware) <- Wikipedia link.

look man lets calm down. I am not saying that we should go whining to the mods saying "I want my money back, get me my money back." I know that if I sent a note to Hoff or any other admin saying "I have had a bad experience with a user who hasnt provided me a refund, what do you think should be my plan of action?" or something to that effect Im sure I could get a thoughtful response.

More than likely a mod would just refer to TOS.

An ounce of kindness goes a long ways, a nice note asking an honest question will receive attention from my experience. There is no reason for us to portray the mods as rulers. They too are members of our community, they are willing to contribute and give advice like the rest of us.

Isn't that exactly what you just implied? If that is the case, what help would you get specifically talking to a mod rather than anyone else on this website?

They are guaranteed sources of experience and knowledge relating to the site. They are easy for new users to find as well. Sure if you have a friend who has been on GH for a while, talk to them!

I am going to stop speaking on behalf of the moderators, if one of them would like to comment.

Haha most mods haven't even been here all that long.

[Novus]

Well I don't know about PMs but most of the private information is blanked out.
Fragility's name is listed publicly in his signature so there's no real privacy issue about that.

Although I think Fragility's behavior is repulsive, self-serving and contradictory. There is really no need to start this thread.The simple answer is just file a paypal complaint and let them deal with it.
At the end of the day, the result is that fragility didn't deliver the board to you and actually still has the board in his possession.

Mod's don't really do this. They can't really enforce anything (financially speaking I mean) here.
You need to deal with Paypal and/or your financial institution. In your case you'll get your money back.

That's as simple as that and what you should do if you haven't already.
Don't wait any longer. Enough time has already passed for this to be considered "reasonable" by any sort of standard.

You should file the complaint. I could understand if the seller asked you to wait until the the board was actually returned to him physically but as that's no longer the issue.
The seller having these inadvertent issues during shipping is really unfortunate. Although, the keyboard wasn't damaged and pretty much the seller's time was the only thing that was really lost here.
The seller is responsible to getting the board to you. If this was a case where the buyer and seller have a disagreement after the buyer has received the board, that's something that's more open to debate depending on the circumstances.
The seller has his board back and in this case it never touched your hands (it wasn't a return, exchange or something like that) then he should send your money back.
Fragility has his board back (physically) and OP doesn't have his money back. That's the "transaction" aspect side of this. It's very clear cut in this situation.


As for this moral bull****, Fragility's in the wrong here no matter which way you dice it.
The seller is ultimately responsible responsible until the board reaches the buyer. That being said, most people are reasonable and understanding if accidents happen while the board is in transit. The seller should have little leeway if the seller couldn't have reasonably prevented and expected whatever unfortunate event happened.

If the board wasn't back in Fragility's hands I could understand this but again this isn't the case.
If you have your board back, then you refund the buyer. If you don't have the financial means to do so - that's your problem and responsibility not the buyer's. You cannot use this an excuse to withhold a refund.
You can't use other obligations such as bills to delay issuing a refund. You're not borrowing money from a friend here, you sold a board which is back in your hands.
You can't ask the original buyer to wait until you've completed your sale of the original board until paying the buyer back.

The argument that fragility desperately needs the money to pay bills or something is a 2 way street. The OP may in fact need this money as well for some purpose in his life. If you subscribe to the thought that Fragility or well  "Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user?" You need to understand that  Fragility is tying tofu's funds in the same manner that you phrased this question. Fragility is holding his funds while he has his board back.

I feel like such a moral arbiter writing this and I have no morals.
Looking at this thread though, I'm a little worried that people don't perceive and abide by proper business guidelines or even just common sense.
I'm more than a little concerned that some people here think it's okay to take liberties with other people's money during sales. I'm always concerned that that some sellers might do this but I'm more than troubled that some people think this is acceptable.

[billnye]

Well I don't know about PMs but most of the private information is blanked out.
Fragility's name is listed publicly in his signature so there's no real privacy issue about that.

Although I think Fragility's behavior is repulsive, self-serving and contradictory. There is really no need to start this thread.The simple answer is just file a paypal complaint and let them deal with it.
At the end of the day, the result is that fragility didn't deliver the board to you and actually still has the board in his possession.

Mod's don't really do this. They can't really enforce anything (financially speaking I mean) here.
You need to deal with Paypal and/or your financial institution. In your case you'll get your money back.

That's as simple as that and what you should do if you haven't already.
Don't wait any longer. Enough time has already passed for this to be considered "reasonable" by any sort of standard.

You should file the complaint. I could understand if the seller asked you to wait until the the board was actually returned to him physically but as that's no longer the issue.
The seller having these inadvertent issues during shipping is really unfortunate. Although, the keyboard wasn't damaged and pretty much the seller's time was the only thing that was really lost here.
The seller is responsible to getting the board to you. If this was a case where the buyer and seller have a disagreement after the buyer has received the board, that's something that's more open to debate depending on the circumstances.
The seller has his board back and in this case it never touched your hands (it wasn't a return, exchange or something like that) then he should send your money back.
Fragility has his board back (physically) and OP doesn't have his money back. That's the "transaction" aspect side of this. It's very clear cut in this situation.


As for this moral bull****, Fragility's in the wrong here no matter which way you dice it.
The seller is ultimately responsible responsible until the board reaches the buyer. That being said, most people are reasonable and understanding if accidents happen while the board is in transit. The seller should have little leeway if the seller couldn't have reasonably prevented and expected whatever unfortunate event happened.

If the board wasn't back in Fragility's hands I could understand this but again this isn't the case.
If you have your board back, then you refund the buyer. If you don't have the financial means to do so - that's your problem and responsibility not the buyer's. You cannot use this an excuse to withhold a refund.
You can't use other obligations such as bills to delay issuing a refund. You're not borrowing money from a friend here, you sold a board which is back in your hands.
You can't ask the original buyer to wait until you've completed your sale of the original board until paying the buyer back.

The argument that fragility desperately needs the money to pay bills or something is a 2 way street. The OP may in fact need this money as well for some purpose in his life. If you subscribe to the thought that Fragility or well  "Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user?" You need to understand that  Fragility is tying tofu's funds in the same manner that you phrased this question. Fragility is holding his funds while he has his board back.

I feel like such a moral arbiter writing this and I have no morals.
Looking at this thread though, I'm a little worried that people don't perceive and abide by proper business guidelines or even just common sense.
I'm more than a little concerned that some people here think it's okay to take liberties with other people's money during sales.

Except he doesn't have the board, he already sold it to lechnerde who has the board in his possession.

[heedpantsnow]

So can he complain to paypal if OP paid as gift?  Did OP pay as gift?  If not, harder to enforce.

Still the whole thing went like this:
OP bought item, never received.
Frag said he would refund, never did.
Frag used that money for something else.
Frag has now sold the same board again to someone else, and has that someone's money.
Frag is now throwing dollas at a new monitor.

So tell me again why some of you think the OP shouldn't be upset?

[hwood34]

So can he complain to paypal if OP paid as gift?  Did OP pay as gift?  If not, harder to enforce.

Still the whole thing went like this:
OP bought item, never received.
Frag said he would refund, never did.
Frag used that money for something else.
Frag has now sold the same board again to someone else, and has that someone's money.
Frag is now throwing dollas at a new monitor.

So tell me again why some of you think the OP shouldn't be upset?

no one here is saying he shouldn't be upset, they're just saying OP could have dealt with it better

[vindaon]

Except he doesn't have the board, he already sold it to lechnerde who has the board in his possession.

So he got money from selling to LechnerDE and never bothered paid op back, that's pretty scummy.

[Novus]

Well I don't know about PMs but most of the private information is blanked out.
Fragility's name is listed publicly in his signature so there's no real privacy issue about that.

Although I think Fragility's behavior is repulsive, self-serving and contradictory. There is really no need to start this thread.The simple answer is just file a paypal complaint and let them deal with it.
At the end of the day, the result is that fragility didn't deliver the board to you and actually still has the board in his possession.

Mod's don't really do this. They can't really enforce anything (financially speaking I mean) here.
You need to deal with Paypal and/or your financial institution. In your case you'll get your money back.

That's as simple as that and what you should do if you haven't already.
Don't wait any longer. Enough time has already passed for this to be considered "reasonable" by any sort of standard.

You should file the complaint. I could understand if the seller asked you to wait until the the board was actually returned to him physically but as that's no longer the issue.
The seller having these inadvertent issues during shipping is really unfortunate. Although, the keyboard wasn't damaged and pretty much the seller's time was the only thing that was really lost here.
The seller is responsible to getting the board to you. If this was a case where the buyer and seller have a disagreement after the buyer has received the board, that's something that's more open to debate depending on the circumstances.
The seller has his board back and in this case it never touched your hands (it wasn't a return, exchange or something like that) then he should send your money back.
Fragility has his board back (physically) and OP doesn't have his money back. That's the "transaction" aspect side of this. It's very clear cut in this situation.


As for this moral bull****, Fragility's in the wrong here no matter which way you dice it.
The seller is ultimately responsible responsible until the board reaches the buyer. That being said, most people are reasonable and understanding if accidents happen while the board is in transit. The seller should have little leeway if the seller couldn't have reasonably prevented and expected whatever unfortunate event happened.

If the board wasn't back in Fragility's hands I could understand this but again this isn't the case.
If you have your board back, then you refund the buyer. If you don't have the financial means to do so - that's your problem and responsibility not the buyer's. You cannot use this an excuse to withhold a refund.
You can't use other obligations such as bills to delay issuing a refund. You're not borrowing money from a friend here, you sold a board which is back in your hands.
You can't ask the original buyer to wait until you've completed your sale of the original board until paying the buyer back.

The argument that fragility desperately needs the money to pay bills or something is a 2 way street. The OP may in fact need this money as well for some purpose in his life. If you subscribe to the thought that Fragility or well  "Have you perhaps thought of the possibility that he is trying to resell it now so that he can give the refund to this user?" You need to understand that  Fragility is tying tofu's funds in the same manner that you phrased this question. Fragility is holding his funds while he has his board back.

I feel like such a moral arbiter writing this and I have no morals.
Looking at this thread though, I'm a little worried that people don't perceive and abide by proper business guidelines or even just common sense.
I'm more than a little concerned that some people here think it's okay to take liberties with other people's money during sales.

Except he doesn't have the board, he already sold it to lechnerde who has the board in his possession.

Is that confirmed? Well whatever it doesn't even matter.
Fragility should have refunded Tofu to begin with (sometime last month) after he recovered his board.

[HPE1000]

So can he complain to paypal if OP paid as gift?  Did OP pay as gift?  If not, harder to enforce.

Still the whole thing went like this:
OP bought item, never received.
Frag said he would refund, never did.
Frag used that money for something else.
Frag has now sold the same board again to someone else, and has that someone's money.
Frag is now throwing dollas at a new monitor.

So tell me again why some of you think the OP shouldn't be upset?

no one here is saying he shouldn't be upset, they're just saying OP could have dealt with it better

Are you kidding me? WHAT better thing could have been done? Continue to sit back and be ignored/strung along? Last message he got was over a month ago (frag also got his money from lechner a month ago). OP bought the thing at the beginning of december.

Frag has been active this whole time on top of it, looking to spend 2x the money on something he doesnt need. Frag is also making OP suck up the shipping fees he lost, which I don't agree with. Nothing he has done deserves any more patience/respect from the buyer. Don't give me that.

[bueller]

So can he complain to paypal if OP paid as gift?  Did OP pay as gift?  If not, harder to enforce.

Still the whole thing went like this:
OP bought item, never received.
Frag said he would refund, never did.
Frag used that money for something else.
Frag has now sold the same board again to someone else, and has that someone's money.
Frag is now throwing dollas at a new monitor.

So tell me again why some of you think the OP shouldn't be upset?

no one here is saying he shouldn't be upset, they're just saying OP could have dealt with it better

Are you kidding me? WHAT better thing could have been done? Continue to sit back and be ignored/strung along? Last message he got was over a month ago (frag also got his money from lechner a month ago). OP bought the thing at the beginning of december.

Frag has been active this whole time on top of it, looking to spend 2x the money on something he doesnt need. Frag is also making OP suck up the shipping fees he lost, which I don't agree with. Nothing he has done deserves any more patience/respect from the buyer. Don't give me that.

Completely agree. I can see no way OP could have handled this better.

And messaging the mods? Come on, they stay out of **** like this for a reason.

[hwood34]

So can he complain to paypal if OP paid as gift?  Did OP pay as gift?  If not, harder to enforce.

Still the whole thing went like this:
OP bought item, never received.
Frag said he would refund, never did.
Frag used that money for something else.
Frag has now sold the same board again to someone else, and has that someone's money.
Frag is now throwing dollas at a new monitor.

So tell me again why some of you think the OP shouldn't be upset?

no one here is saying he shouldn't be upset, they're just saying OP could have dealt with it better

Are you kidding me? WHAT better thing could have been done? Continue to sit back and be ignored/strung along? Last message he got was over a month ago (frag also got his money from lechner a month ago). OP bought the thing at the beginning of december.

Frag has been active this whole time on top of it, looking to spend 2x the money on something he doesnt need. Frag is also making OP suck up the shipping fees he lost, which I don't agree with. Nothing he has done deserves any more patience/respect from the buyer. Don't give me that.

oh weird I forgot that I said that he should have handled it better, my mistake. I said that people were implying that, not that it was necessarily true

[hwood34]

TL;DR pay as merchandise

[whentheclouds]

reminds me of WhiteFireDragon even if it isn't as severe. pretty lame that you can't use level of activity within the community as a metric of trustworthiness

[tbc]

i'm just going to 'speak up' on the pay as goods thing.

remember that this is between a canadian and a european.  NOT between american and american.

if europe to canada is as bad as canada to europe, then paying with goods [properly] would have required tracking which would have cost upwards of $40-$50 USD with proper packaging.

yes...people are going to say 'suck it up'....i'm not trying to defend one side or the other.  facts are good yes?

[bueller]

TL;DR pay as merchandise

Always, always, always pay as goods. Sure, there are fees involved but it's worth it when it comes to times like this.

[hwood34]

i'm just going to 'speak up' on the pay as goods thing.

remember that this is between a canadian and a european.  NOT between american and american.

if europe to canada is as bad as canada to europe, then paying with goods [properly] would have required tracking which would have cost upwards of $40-$50 USD with proper packaging.

yes...people are going to say 'suck it up'....i'm not trying to defend one side or the other.  facts are good yes?

isn't even untracked mail that's heavy like a keyboard gonna cost up there anyway? haven't shipped something like that cross-atlantic in a while so I'm not totally sure

[tbc]

i'm just going to 'speak up' on the pay as goods thing.

remember that this is between a canadian and a european.  NOT between american and american.

if europe to canada is as bad as canada to europe, then paying with goods [properly] would have required tracking which would have cost upwards of $40-$50 USD with proper packaging.

yes...people are going to say 'suck it up'....i'm not trying to defend one side or the other.  facts are good yes?

isn't even untracked mail that's heavy like a keyboard gonna cost up there anyway? haven't shipped something like that cross-atlantic in a while so I'm not totally sure

i'm being conservative.  if i remember correctly, it was actually closer to $60.

EDIT:

even if it's only $10 for tracking...i've seen people from everywhere bail on trades and purchases cause of that tiny amount on the already 50% shipping cost.  except for australians....tough guys

funny thing, it's like $180 to ship a tk to singapore with tracking from canada (maybe it was minila)

[mullidan]

I'm with the OP and I would've done exactly the same thing. In life there is always a consequence for any action you take and to help further the community I believe any member who would exhibit such behavior should be banned until the matter is resolved, or forever depending on how serious. Now, if the seller doesn't want to resolve the issue with the OP then that's fine. The OP can get his or her money back from PP, our shady dealer is banned, and the community is better off for it.

And yes, you should never send money as a gift. 

[taylordcraig]

To OP and anyone else reading one thing to learn here is don't pay as gift.

I didn't read any father than this.
I make all my buyers wait for my invoice, then I send to the verified paypal address.
This way the buyer and seller are protected.
When I ship with tracking to the PP address, I am protected by paypal's seller clause.
When the buyer pays the invoice, they are covered 90 days, [180 international] by the buyer clause if the product is not as described or doesnt show up.

Separate account.
I transfered my RS3 order to another user on this forum.
In the messages to them I quoted Ivan saying he would transfer the order after they paid me.
I then invoiced them on paypal, protecting us both.
I THEN told them to message Ivan, to confirm I wasn't scamming them.
I would never, but you can never be too precautious.

[abjr]

This thread makes me think of this quote from Rounders:

[bueller]

This thread makes me think of this quote from Rounders:

Love that movie.

[paicrai]

ITT fragil1ty is a wanker
i dont know the details but i dont feel inclined to disagree

[Fragil1ty]

So I've just received a message from OP regarding this thread so I thought I'd step in and give my two cents, bear in mind I have no had a message from OP since February, proof here:

[1]


Now I want to throw this out there, I have been on GH for a fairly long period of time, during that time, I've sold lots of keyboards ranging from Choc minis, HHKB's, Keycool84's and even mice, I have never, ever had an issue gone awry as this has.

Now I do have money spare here from my birthday, funds that I could quite easily refund the OP for, but the simple fact is, he has gone and made a post about all of this posting some of my personal information (my name and my personal e-mail address) and despite him having my e-mail address, I have received 0 emails from him about this matter.

Now I like this community, I like being a part of it as it's quite a good one. I have every intention of paying back the OP, but as I previously specified, I'm deducting the shipping charges because I paid for them plain and simple, it's not my fault that crap went south during the shipping process.

I can see how this may look like I'm trying to be a bit of an ass surrounding this whole incident, but I am a man of my word and he will get his payment.

I wont be paying you today as I will be paying you within the next 2 weeks. I don't appreciate threads being made about me that tarnish my reputation here on the forums, I don't appreciate my personal information being released because you are frustrated, you took the time to black out information of yours, but you didn't take the time to do the same to me? Hm, I know I'm in the wrong here, but that's a bit of a **** move also.

I would throw in why I have been inactive here, but it's down to personal reasons and I don't want any sympathy. I would like to thank people who have saw both sides and not jumped to conclusions, I hope this can be resolved relatively soon, it has gone on long enough and that's partially my fault due to complications and money issues, but as I specified above, I will get this sorted ASAP.

Thank you for reading this and thank you for your patience. @op

[nubbinator]

So, since you haven't responded or paid them back from February and since they reached the breaking point and finally made a post about it, you're going to punish them and not pay them back right now even though you have the money?  That's ****ed up.  Make it right today. 

I always withhold judgment until I see both sides.  Now I'm with OP.