Author Topic: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice  (Read 209937 times)

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Offline Leslieann

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Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« on: Fri, 29 April 2016, 23:23:04 »
Omron switches
While it's by far the most commonly used switch in in mice (more than 80%) there's a lot of questions about the numbers and letter designations. I myself have spent many many hours over many days scouring for information to figure this out. Since publishing this guide also helped bring in others who brought more info (thanks guys!). At this point I think it's safe to assume we have a good grasp on these switches.


Important warning TL/DR:
The  D2FC-F-K is NOT the same as a standard D2F and D2FC, it is a dedicated switch made and marketed specifically for mice.  See -K designation below for more.

Quick info:
D2F-F or D2F-01-F (in that order) if you want the better sealed Japanese switch which happens to be 75gram (yes, it's stiffer) or if you still want a 60gram switch stick with the D2FC-F-K. Avoid every other D2FC, they just don't work well in modern mice. All are out of the recommended operating range but they are a lot closer than then the common D2FC (the K may or may not be as good as the Japanese D2F).



Updated for 2020
More info has come in, particularly regarding the D2FC-F-K thanks to chrisdewit  and Keebon and some personal testing. This has also been re-formatted a little and new info added and corrected. It's still not perfect, we still do not know everything but it's fairly complete at this point. Recommendations are ^ up there.

Info breakdown (older info)
D2F vs D2FC indicates origin. [/b]
More
D2F = Japanese (always has Japan molded into top along with Omron label)
D2FC = China (may have China painted on side or top, or just a “C” in the model #)

Chinese models are mass produced and are considered to be a bit sloppy in tolerances, so one may have an actuation point a bit higher than another. Tolerances on these are pretty small so you probably wouldn't notice, but just know that they are more sloppy than the Japanese models.

Japanese models have much nicer internals, better tolerances, better metals,a stronger frame and are better sealed from dirt and moisture. They are also slightly taller (0.08mm)  and have a shorter actuation distance but it’s close enough to be a drop in replacement.

Warning.
While you can use a normal D2FC in a modern mouse, it will be inconsistent and fail very early. See the -K designation below.


-01 (can be with or without the dash)
The first batch of batch of numbers or lack of them is usually an 01, this indicates the spring material.
More
-01 Indicates a “gold alloy spring”
lack of -01  Indicates a “silver alloy spring”
I put them in quotes because I suspect it means they are plated spring steel, not an actual alloy of the two materials as implied by Omron.

Which is better?
Honestly, I'm not sure. I have 01's in my G900 and they seem stable for the moment, and gold lasts, the problem is silver *should* work better with lower amperage and amperage is the problem and precisely why you should not use a common D2FC. My advice, get silver if you can but don't put in a lot of effort until we know more.


Spring rates (-F)
More
The next important indicator you want to know is the -F
-F Japanese – 75grams.
-F Chinese – 60grams.
Others – 120 or 150gram

Some listings will just tell the spring rate, others use the -F designation.

Beware, Omron or maybe it's the sellers, have a habit of listing some Chinese models as 75gram. It's still not known if there s a 60 and a 75gram Chinese spring or if they are all just 60gram and being confused by Omrons literature. Translation is at ties an art so things can get lost.

Which is better?
It’s up to you really.

Warning.
While you can use a normal D2FC in a modern mouse, it will be inconsistent and fail very early. See the -K designation below.

-K designation (-K)
This is only for the Chinese model and indicates a mouse specific switch.
More
Modern mice use such low amounts of energy that a normal D2FC no longer functions consistently. The Japanese D2f functions better but the Chinese D2FC has problems, it's suspected this is sort of a hybrid.   Regardless it;s aimed directly at mice.

The standard D2FC will work, it’s just inconsistent and will be rather short lived. When I put them in my G900 the right click became inconsistent within a month or two and got progressively worse from there. For comparison I usually get 12-14 months out of a -K, keep in mind that is a sample size of only 2, but it worked pretty much as expected (bad), so I’d say it was enough of a sample size in that regard.

If you want to retain a 60gram spring in your mouse you will need to use the D2FC-F-K as it’s the only 60gram spring model available from Omron that i can verify.



Lifespan Labeled as (10M)
More
There is a rumor that Japanese switches start with a lower lifespan and that the -F has a longer lifespan. This doesn't seem to really hold much water when you consider that Omron themselves labels them for you. Sometimes.

Why? These lifespan numbers are for ZERO load, and they really do mean ANY load. If the mouse button rests on the switch button or your finger causes it to, then the lifespan will be shortened.  Anything touching that button shortens the lifespan. Many mice actually may have some slop to prevent this when your fingers are off the mouse, but as soon as you put them on it, the lifespan is probably starting to drop as the weight of your fingers remove that slop. Personally, 10M last longer than 20M for me, see my note here.

Omron has multiple ratings:
(1M) = 1million presses
(3m) = 3million presses
(5m) = 5million presses
(10M) = 10million presses
(20M) = 20million presses

Unfortunately, the only surefire way to know for certain is with the part number as shown above as they didn't always mark them.  However they often coincided with the button color or a painted dot on top.

Some of the lower numbers the details are sketchy, but we don't really care about them anyhow.
Black  – no dot – (1M) = 1million presses (not verified)
Red or Yellow button or dot (3m) = 3million (not verified)
Red or Yellow button or dot (5m) = 5million (not verified)
Gray button and/or dot - (10M) = 10million
White button and/or dot - (20M) = 20million

The colors are also referred to as tops, so when someone says a “white top” Omron, they mean it's a switch rated for 20mil. Presses.

Use caution: I don't recommend relying on the button color. MS has custom switches made for them (labeled MS) as does another company, which can be different and I have seen white and gray botton Omrons with no (XXM) stamped on them. These are usually older models, but it's something to keep in mind. Dots and labeling is the only surefire way to know and a while lower numbers may not say it, you can bet a 50M is going to let you know it's a 50M as it’s a selling point.

I'll put a chart at the bottom showing what is using what that I know of and if others post I will try and add them.


Other random numbers and letters in the switch part number  Example D2F L3 -T
More
Frankly, you do not want any of these on your switch, as they pertain to the soldering terminals and different ways to actuate the button, almost none of which are useful to use. Note: Levers can be removed, so if you want a specific switch in a hurry and can only find it with a lever, you can always remove it from the switch and use it without problems, just be careful removing it.

L = Hinge lever
L2 = Roller lever
L3 = simulated roller
L30 = larger simulated roller
-T = self clinching terminals (this can still work in a mouse)
-A = right angled terminals
-A1 = left angled terminals
-D3 = big solder terminals
-D = compact terminals


Other odballs
It's probably these are an older naming convention Omron used, as we know they switched lifespan indicators a while back.
More
Take much of this with a grain of salt as we have no hard evidence on any of this.
D2F-F-7N  is Comparable to D2F-01F  (Japanese)  (Confirmed this is a 75g switch!)
D2FC-F-7N  is Comparable to D2FC-01F (Chinese)

D2F-3-7 is reportedly comparable to D2F-01F (but I suspect it's closer to D2F-01 due to lack of the N) (Japanese)
D2FC-3-7 is probably comparable to D2FC-01F (but I suspect it's closer to D2F-01 due to lack of the N) (Chinese)

Note: I do not know if the D2FC-3-7 exists, but I believe it might since the 7N has a Japanese and Chinese counterpart. A quick Google search turned up nothing.

Beware with any of these, as they may not function properly in a modern mouse due to the low amperage. See -K designation.


Other Switch Brands
More
Yes, there are others that can be used, lots in fact. Most agree that the Omrons are the best and by far the most common in quality mice, which begs the question, if they are the norm, why do people and manufacturers make such a big deal over Omrons. “Look, I have the same as everyone else!”

WARNING!!!
While there are others that will go in, they are often slightly different sizes, and some are not designed for the low amperages we currently use in mice. So while they may fit and work for a bit, go back and read the -K designation before actually buying any.

Various brands:
Kinzu, Kana, Himake, Panasonic, Huanos (loud according to TP4Tissue), Zippy, Qiaoh and TTF
Interesting ones:
TTF  is considered quietest
Zippy uses a coil spring so may be more durable


Popular Mice and what switches they use:
80% or more of all mice use them, and it's even more common at the high end.
More
Known to use alternatives:
Corsair
Razer
Steelseries

Exclusively use Omrons or almost exclusively:
Asus
Logitech
Cooler Master
Roccat

With Logitech, the newer and more expensive the mouse, the higher the lifespan rating as well.


Sources
More

Updated June 2020
« Last Edit: Wed, 17 June 2020, 02:36:10 by Leslieann »
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Offline infiniti

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 30 April 2016, 00:05:54 »
Very informative.  Thanks, Leslieann! :thumb:

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 30 April 2016, 03:56:08 »
I'm in the 01F camp because it is the Japan switch with the Thin-est spring.

I prefer as light a switch as possible..


The D2F-F should be more rigid, because that spring needs to be thicker to handle the higher amp rating.

Therefore it behaves less like a spring, and more like a lever..



In the end ,,  preference..


MX-Blue >> Topre 

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 30 April 2016, 04:36:18 »
The D2F-F should be more rigid, because that spring needs to be thicker to handle the higher amp rating.
No, as per Omron, current has to do with type of spring type or spring coating (01), not spring pressure (-F).
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 30 April 2016, 06:10:50 »
The D2F-F should be more rigid, because that spring needs to be thicker to handle the higher amp rating.
No, as per Omron, current has to do with type of spring type or spring coating (01), not spring pressure (-F).

Hrrrmmm.....


I know that silver tarnishes which is why it wouldn't be good for low voltage applications.

It seems to be consistent with their choice of gold-alloy for the 01F..

But you're saying this whole thing doesn't influence the thickness of that spring ?


The majority of the metal here is still copper though..  I don't see why they even need to plate it..

Silver tarnishes just like copper..



Well, maybe next time I'll buy some D2F-F, and take it apart to check.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 30 April 2016, 15:53:39 »
Silver tarnishes just like copper..


Silver needs a secondary element to make it happen, sulphur is the most common and it's found in eggs and mustard, which is why tableware tarnish. Copper will tarnish and oxidize simply from exposure to air and moisture, work with it a teeny bit and it's shocking how fast it does it, especially when exposed to heat.  The tarnish on silver is also easily removed compared to the carbonate that copper forms, simply operating the switch should keep it relatively clean provided it's a silver to silver contact. Not so with copper.
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Offline louiscar

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 23 July 2016, 17:23:32 »
Background:
Spring rates (-F)
More
The next important indicator you want to know is the -F
DCF2 =150g actuating force
DCF2 -F = 75g actuation force 

Thanks for this information, good to see the data in one place. I got here naturally because I needed to replace switches for my Steelseries Sensei RAW.

Just a couple of things: I presume the above was a typo - it confused me for a bit but I guess you meant D2FC not DCF2?

There is one switch I can't find here or what / where to get. This is the micro switch for the scroll wheel. It's a square format maybe 5-7mm and from what I can see has no markings on it.
On my mouse this is the one I really need to replace as it's stopped working. Any ideas what they use for this?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 23 July 2016, 20:19:44 »
Background:
Spring rates (-F)
More
The next important indicator you want to know is the -F
DCF2 =150g actuating force
DCF2 -F = 75g actuation force 

Thanks for this information, good to see the data in one place. I got here naturally because I needed to replace switches for my Steelseries Sensei RAW.

Just a couple of things: I presume the above was a typo - it confused me for a bit but I guess you meant D2FC not DCF2?

There is one switch I can't find here or what / where to get. This is the micro switch for the scroll wheel. It's a square format maybe 5-7mm and from what I can see has no markings on it.
On my mouse this is the one I really need to replace as it's stopped working. Any ideas what they use for this?
Good catch, it's now fixed.

The switch you are talking about is a Panasonic switch (based on pictures of the Raw torn down).
This should be it.
http://my.element14.com/panasonic-electronic-components/evqp0e07k/switch-6-2x6-2mm-0-74n/dp/2079570#ProductSubstitutes
Omron makes something similar (and 4x the cost) called a B3M-6009 tactile switch, scroll down on the link above and you will see that they interchange.

Don't rush out for the Omron thinking it's any better.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | GMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 23 July 2016, 21:04:32 »
Background:
Spring rates (-F)
More
The next important indicator you want to know is the -F
DCF2 =150g actuating force
DCF2 -F = 75g actuation force 

Thanks for this information, good to see the data in one place. I got here naturally because I needed to replace switches for my Steelseries Sensei RAW.

Just a couple of things: I presume the above was a typo - it confused me for a bit but I guess you meant D2FC not DCF2?

There is one switch I can't find here or what / where to get. This is the micro switch for the scroll wheel. It's a square format maybe 5-7mm and from what I can see has no markings on it.
On my mouse this is the one I really need to replace as it's stopped working. Any ideas what they use for this?
Good catch, it's now fixed.

The switch you are talking about is a Panasonic switch (based on pictures of the Raw torn down).
This should be it.
http://my.element14.com/panasonic-electronic-components/evqp0e07k/switch-6-2x6-2mm-0-74n/dp/2079570#ProductSubstitutes
Omron makes something similar (and 4x the cost) called a B3M-6009 tactile switch, scroll down on the link above and you will see that they interchange.

Don't rush out for the Omron thinking it's any better.

Those square switches are mushy..

Offline louiscar

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 23 July 2016, 23:55:01 »

http://my.element14.com/panasonic-electronic-components/evqp0e07k/switch-6-2x6-2mm-0-74n/dp/2079570#ProductSubstitutes
Omron makes something similar (and 4x the cost) called a B3M-6009 tactile switch, scroll down on the link above and you will see that they interchange.

Don't rush out for the Omron thinking it's any better.

Brilliant! Thank you, hopefully I can get one in UK or ebay.
I see the switches I have in the RAW (actually a badged version) are 10M rather than 20M not that I'm bothered too much. I will probably change the lot and I have a second one in service which I had bought cheaply so I broke that one out to use, so no great hurry to get the old one back up and running.

It's curious that Steelseries decided to use a possibly less durable switch for the scroll wheel but I expect (as in most cases) it doesn't get as much action as the others do so they figured it'd probably last as long. It's the first to go in mine though as the other switches are all are fine.

Thanks again for your kind help.

regards

Louis

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 24 July 2016, 00:04:19 »
Brilliant! Thank you, hopefully I can get one in UK or ebay.
I see the switches I have in the RAW (actually a badged version) are 10M rather than 20M not that I'm bothered too much. I will probably change the lot and I have a second one in service which I had bought cheaply so I broke that one out to use, so no great hurry to get the old one back up and running.

It's curious that Steelseries decided to use a possibly less durable switch for the scroll wheel but I expect (as in most cases) it doesn't get as much action as the others do so they figured it'd probably last as long. It's the first to go in mine though as the other switches are all are fine.
You're welcome.
Check Ebay.com (not U.K.), there is a person in the US selling the Panasonics for $2.25 each, I think it was.

I've got a few with 10m and a few with 20m, and I'm convinced the 10m can take more abuse.
 And yes, they use them because they suffer less abuse, I've never killed a wheel button.
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Offline louiscar

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 24 July 2016, 00:17:25 »

You're welcome.
Check Ebay.com (not U.K.), there is a person in the US selling the Panasonics for $2.25 each, I think it was.

I've got a few with 10m and a few with 20m, and I'm convinced the 10m can take more abuse.
 And yes, they use them because they suffer less abuse, I've never killed a wheel button.

Thanks, yes I hardly used the scroll button - certainly never on the desktop applications but I had a couple of games that made use of it extensively so this probably took it to the end of it's life.

I've found the Omrons on ebay but also I see the equivalent to element14 here are Farnell.com and they do the switch. Judging by their postage I thought I'd maybe order the Omrons from them but they don't do the D2f-F-7N and I note your comment on fitting the Jap vs Chinese switches. The seem to do a slightly different range. Maybe the D2F01F is the closest I can see that may fit the bill?

http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&categoryName=All%20Categories&selectedCategoryId=&gs=true&st=omron%20d2f

btw. there are a couple more transpositions to edit, (DF2 instead of D2F:

Quote
DF2 vs DF2 -01 (can be with or without the dash)
The next batch of numbers or lack of them is usually an 01, this indicates the spring material.
Less
DF2C  Indicates a “silver alloy spring”
DF2C -01 Indicates a “gold alloy spring”

Easily done. :-)

EDIT:
Just took off the top section to check the switches used for the side and top. I hadn't unscrewed this board yet. Looks like the switches on these are TTC and the legs are right angle. They look exactly the same size and so I expect interchangeable but I don't have any other markings on the switch to check. Another Panasonic in the middle for the toggle.
« Last Edit: Sun, 24 July 2016, 00:38:25 by louiscar »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 24 July 2016, 16:00:44 »
The D2F01F should probably work. IF your button has a bit of slop, almost all of them do, however it will probably not last as long since anything resting on the switch will shorten the lifespan.

No idea on the other switches.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 25 July 2016, 14:14:59 »
Recently got some huano switches.. Man these things are LOUD.. extremely bright sound..

I like the D2F01F better because it's much less annoying..

Offline Panp858

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 06:32:41 »
First of all thank you Leslieann for doing so much research.

Atm I have a mice on my desk which uses two D2FC-F-7N(10M) for the main buttons. But differently than expected the case has a white button and no clear point in any color. So this mismatches the information you have given.

Another points is the "Machine switch Numbers". As far as I understood your writing the machine versions are only for component placement systems while the others are for the "retail market" so to say. Anyway what does your sentence "D2FC-F-7N  is Comparable to D2FC-01F" mean in that context. Are these the same products differently labeled?

Thanks for your help!

Offline E3E

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 06:46:14 »
My Logitech M705 Marathon originally had Himake switches before I swapped them both for Omrons after one switch started double-clicking. 
 
The Himakes lasted me many many years though, so I have nothing bad to say about them.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 16:26:22 »
First of all thank you Leslieann for doing so much research.

Atm I have a mice on my desk which uses two D2FC-F-7N(10M) for the main buttons. But differently than expected the case has a white button and no clear point in any color. So this mismatches the information you have given.

Another points is the "Machine switch Numbers". As far as I understood your writing the machine versions are only for component placement systems while the others are for the "retail market" so to say. Anyway what does your sentence "D2FC-F-7N  is Comparable to D2FC-01F" mean in that context. Are these the same products differently labeled?

Thanks for your help!
You're welcome.

Button color was in regards to lifespan, for a while used this or painted dots. They abandoned that method in favor of just writing it on the sides


As for "machine"
Yes, I believe they are the same product, just packaged differently for ease of machine installation.
See how these resistors are assembled in a batch for a machine to install them, same thing, but a strip of switches.
151532-0



They do similar with capacitors and leds, so why not switches. Keep in mind, this is just what I suspect based on the evidence I can find, I have no hard proof of it as trying to track down OEM supplied D2FC-F-7N isn't easy as the internet has become so polluted by people trying to locate them. The best evidence for this comes from Asus, the Spatha mouse comes with D2FC-F-7N's pre installed (it's done by a machine) but the spare switch they ship it with are D2F-01F,  which was meant for hand assembly.

And yes, I do find it odd they use Chinese internal, but Japanese for hand, it probably just came down to source and convenience. The company doing assembly probably has pallets of 7N's in strips ready to go, but someone had to source the individual switches to include.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 17:01:28 »
Updates and observations:
7n switches
As noted above I found some info about the Asus Spatha mouse which sort corroborates the machine info, but also led to me finding more info about the 7N switch, which apparently comes in both Japanese and Chinese flavors.

I also added a bit about the 3-7 switch, basically assuming that it two has a Japanese and Chinese counterpart.


Something I've personally noticed regarding lifespan,
I have found that at least in my case, that 20M switches are not as durable as 10M switches. While this at first runs counter to Omron, if you remember when I said resting your finger on the button shortens the lifespan, it's possible that the 20Ms are more easily damaged. So while a 10M may be rated for 10mil clicks, resting your finger on it may shorten it to say 9million clicks, while resting your finger on a 20M may shorten it to 5mil clicks.

In all fairness, this could just be a change in my use pattern, a change in Omron's production or Logitech's production as the 20s are a recent change for Logitech and their manufacturing has changed so it could be the supplier. Hard to say, but so far I have not been impressed with 20s.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 21:05:10 »
Logitech has the little H shaped plunger bar to reduce over-travel..

Whereas many other mouse housings do not.  like microsoft wmo.. it's just a straight piece..


So if you're comparing , that should be taken into account.  where the H bar would increase the durability of the switch regardless of the switch rating..

OR perhaps that switch rating was only possible using logitech's h-bar..   as in the other way around..


We're never gonna really know because we can't test this.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 29 October 2016, 23:29:56 »
Logitech has the little H shaped plunger bar to reduce over-travel..

Whereas many other mouse housings do not.  like microsoft wmo.. it's just a straight piece..


So if you're comparing , that should be taken into account.  where the H bar would increase the durability of the switch regardless of the switch rating..

Actually Microsoft has a special line of switches from Omron (marked with an M or S, I think), however that isn't what I was referring to.

From the OP,
Warning: Keep in mind that these numbers are without any load, and they really do mean ANY load. If the mouse button rests on the switch button or your finger causes it to, then the lifespan will be shortened. Anything touching that button shortens the lifespan. Your mouse may have some slop to prevent this when your fingers are off the mouse, but as soon as you put them on it, the lifespan is probably starting to drop as the weight of your fingers remove that slop.
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Offline Elrick

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 30 October 2016, 02:39:52 »
Something I've personally noticed regarding lifespan,
I have found that at least in my case, that 20M switches are not as durable as 10M switches. While this at first runs counter to Omron, if you remember when I said resting your finger on the button shortens the lifespan, it's possible that the 20Ms are more easily damaged. So while a 10M may be rated for 10mil clicks, resting your finger on it may shorten it to say 9million clicks, while resting your finger on a 20M may shorten it to 5mil clicks.

In all fairness, this could just be a change in my use pattern, a change in Omron's production or Logitech's production as the 20s are a recent change for Logitech and their manufacturing has changed so it could be the supplier. Hard to say, but so far I have not been impressed with 20s.

Personally I stopped caring about what type of Omron is inside of any mouse model.  If the mouse initially feels good then I leave things alone BUT if the button feels soft or no click is present when pressed numerous times, then it's opened up to replace the unruly beggars inside.

Of course due to my hands and fingers I'm incapable of handling such tiny buttons with solder and cleaning, so I let my niece do the removing of the switches and soldering new ones in.  She has in fact saved a lot of mice from the bin and I have to say you youngsters with long and slender fingers are well worth your weight in Gold.
« Last Edit: Sun, 30 October 2016, 02:41:35 by Elrick »

Offline nyunyu

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 30 October 2016, 08:23:09 »
Something I've personally noticed regarding lifespan,
I have found that at least in my case, that 20M switches are not as durable as 10M switches.

Do not bother with chinese Omrons.

Japanese Omrons are rated only as 1M click, but they have much sturdier structure, so they will outlive any of the 10M-20M switches.

On my last MX Revo mouse I swapped the standard chinese swithes to D2F-01F immediatelly.
That was 5 years ago, mouse is still in great condition.

The D2FC-F-something switches in my previous 2 MX Revos haven't survived till their 3rd birthday, both failed after 2.5 and 2.75 years.

Also I don't like the sound and the feel of the chinese Omrons.

Small notice: japanese Omrons have 0.1mm taller stem, that can be a problem on non Logitech mice.
Razer users have complained about the extra tension on the mouse top.

BTW, Logitech used D2F-F switches in their high end mice 20 years ago, meanwhile their OEM mice used noname switches like Huano or Zhij.
They abandoned this habit in '99, since then all mice are manufactured with various chinese Omron D2FC-F-s.

My friends and I had 3 MouseMan+ mice with japanese D2F-F switches, first switch failure occured after 4 years, 2 other mice worked for 5+ years.
« Last Edit: Sun, 30 October 2016, 08:48:36 by nyunyu »

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 30 October 2016, 09:08:54 »
Thanks for the info :thumb:

Before I went shopping thought it might be a good idea to check the switches in my CM Inferno are compatible.  They are marked ZHIJ so looking at this pic (of a different CM mouse) with one next to an Omron it looks good to me?

I was surprised to see both failing switcbes are red (there are greens in there too) as left click gets way more use but middle has been failing for months and left only started playing up recently.  Needless to say this is not usable so it's repair or replace time.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 30 October 2016, 10:22:22 »
Thanks for the info :thumb:

Before I went shopping thought it might be a good idea to check the switches in my CM Inferno are compatible.  They are marked ZHIJ so looking at this pic (of a different CM mouse) with one next to an Omron it looks good to me?

I was surprised to see both failing switcbes are red (there are greens in there too) as left click gets way more use but middle has been failing for months and left only started playing up recently.  Needless to say this is not usable so it's repair or replace time.

Keep in mind..   nyunyu--   is a biased, japanophile..

Tp4 am the largest proponent of D2F-F japan,   ,  I use them in all my stuff..

However,  I've personally worn out only 2x  D2FC-7N (China 20mil), switches.

I've also worn out 2x D2F-F (japan), switches..


So,  these personal experiences are by NO MEANS a true assessment of the reliability of the switches..


In general,  the only validation is done on the side of Logitech,  as they ACTUALLY TEST the switches to 20 mil clicks.. which takes months..

So,  IMHO,  as far as any engineering opinion can be given,   Our only reference point IS the logitech rating they stamp on the switches which comes out to 20Mil...







Offline nyunyu

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 30 October 2016, 11:32:35 »
Quote
MX Revolution = 10M

I definitelly remember, that my first MX Revolution ('06) used regular D2FC-F-7N.
But I found 4 (10M) switches in my cookie jar, they might have been in my newer Revos ('07 and BT models)



Left to right:
japanese D2F-L (gray button): I bought these 10 years ago for MX1000 repair attempt, but these are regular D2Fs, NOT the soft D2F-F series. Very stiff :(
japanese D2F-01F (gray button): I use them as daily driver in all my mice
chinese D2FC-F-7N (white button): from MX700 or MX1000 or MX Revo '06
chinese D2FC-F-7N (10M) (lightgray button): from newer MX Revos ('07 or BT)

Seems like the older chinese switch is made of pure uncoated copper, the newer (10M) one has some coating, just like the japanese.
The coating on the regular japanese switch is darker, contains less gold than the coating on the low-current -01 series.

I'm not sure about the button color theory in case of Omron switches.
3M rated chinese Omrons found in some Razer mice had red buttons, but all others have gray or white button, depending of the origin.

As I know, TTC used button color as indicator of the durability, but their webpage with the exact specs is no longer available  :( )

BTW, I have seen a very different chinese Omron switch in Gigabyte mice several years ago.
Their housing was almost exact copy of the japanese Omrons, but had "Omron China" written on the top, and D2F-J01F was the model name.
Now these switches can be found under Qiaoh brand, and manufactured under Omron's license:
http://www.qiaoh.com/en/product-show.asp?id=132
« Last Edit: Sun, 30 October 2016, 12:48:08 by nyunyu »

Offline nyunyu

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 30 October 2016, 13:43:45 »
Hmm, I found my old MouseMan+ mouse (bought it in 98), it has red Omron D2F-F-3-7 switches under the main buttons, and Cherry DB2 as side button.

Well, those "3M" rated switches lasted far longer, than the default chinese Omrons found in my MX700, MX1000, MX Revo mices. :)

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 31 October 2016, 01:14:41 »
Do not bother with chinese Omrons.
Oh, I entirely agree, I wouldn't swap out working Chinese Omrons, but if I have to replace them, they're getting Japanese switches. The price difference isn't a big deal and even if it only buys me even a few extra months it's worth the money to save the effort.
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Offline DanD3n

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 02 December 2016, 04:42:59 »
Wow, very informative and useful, thank you! I need to replace the switches on a couple of mice, but is there one in particular that's more quiet?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 03 December 2016, 03:06:44 »
Wow, very informative and useful, thank you! I need to replace the switches on a couple of mice, but is there one in particular that's more quiet?
You're welcome.

Softer click is quieter, however, many people think they are less pleasing to click as a result.
There are also some new switches that are supposed to be really quiet, however I haven't seen them, nor do I know if they are compatible.
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Offline rabbitfire

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 26 December 2016, 04:55:28 »
Background:
Omron switches are the common by far used in mice, however the naming scheme and rumors abound about what each does and is. Here I'll try and document as much as I can and dispel some of the mysteries. This took hours to compile, reading websites, pdf's and more, it contains all you should need to know.


Note:
Omron uses two naming methods. While I have not confirmed it, I suspect the numbers are different simply because one number is meant for a machine to install while the others are meant for individual sale/retail. The machine ones probably come assembled in trays or strips so the machine can feed them in quickly. This is backed up by the Asus ROG Spatha mouse which uses a machine numbers on the switches inside the mouse, but retail naming on the two switches included (this mouse allows the user to change them).

This guide covers both, but right or wrong about naming reasons, this is how they will be referred to in order to distinguish them.


D2F Switches:
The switches by Omron are all designated D2F, from there it gets a bit more complex. We'll discuss retail switches first, as once you understand them, you can more easily understand the machine switches.


D2F vs D2FC indicates origin and more. (Important!)
More
D2F = Japanese (always has Japan molded into top along with Omron label)
D2FC = China (may have China painted on side or top, or just a “C” in the model #)

Chinese models are mass produced and are considered to be a bit sloppy in tolerances, so one may have an actuation point a bit higher than another. Tolerances on these are pretty small so you wouldn't notice, but just know that they are more sloppy than the Japanese models.

Japanese models have much nicer internals, better tolerances, better metals,a stronger frame and are better sealed from dirt and moisture. They are also slightly taller and have a shorter actuation distance, it's for this reason they are not always interchangeable with Chinese models.

Which is better?

No question, the Japanese switch is better made, but unless you use it in a harsh environment, or plan on your mouse lasting 10 years or more it may not be worth the added expense or hassle to install them.

Warning: If your mouse has Chinese models, the Japanese models may not fit (unless there is a teeny bit of slop between button and switch itself, which is common). Most Logitech can probably handle it, but if not you can always file actuator. Just remember if you don't like it and try to go back to the Japanese version things will be very sloppy.


D2F vs D2F -01 (can be with or without the dash)
The next batch of numbers or lack of them is usually an 01, this indicates the spring material.
More
D2FC  Indicates a “silver alloy spring”
D2FC -01 Indicates a “gold alloy spring”
I put them in quotes because I suspect it means they are plated spring steel, not an actual alloy of the two materials as implied by Omron.

Which is better?
Gold is better at fighting corrosion, however it doesn't conduct as well and needs a bit more power to start conduction. In our situation, it doesn't matter much and given time and corrosion (tarnish), the gold will maintain it's level of resistance better. So unless you need the added conductivity for higher amps, gold is the better choice here as evidenced by the act that better mice almost universally use the 01.


Spring rates (-F)
More
The next important indicator you want to know is the -F
D2FC =150g actuating force
D2FC -F = 75g actuation force 

Which is better?
Now before you rush out and look for a -F, there are considerations here and it's really not that simple.
-F will obviously be easier to push and likely will last longer (irrelevant, you'll see). A non -F will have a much more solid click to it and a faster return. This is important if you play FPS and need to rapid fire. Most people tend to prefer the non -f, especially in gaming mice, but if you don't game the -f may be your favorite and I can see some of you already drooling, but...

Warning: I told you this wasn't that simple…
Switches have a max force rating which happens to be based on the switch and is typically 10x the actuation force. So if you tend to abuse your mice, the non -f can actually last much longer. Just another reason for gamers to consider the non -F. As you start pounding the button for rapid fire, you can easily exceed the -F's force limits which is only a little over a pound. This becomes more relevant in the next section.


Lifespan Will be labeled as D2F -01 (10M)
More
Remember I said lifespan on the -F was irrelevant, now you learn why.
There is a rumor that Japanese switches start with a lower lifespan and that the -F has a longer lifespan. This doesn't seem to really hold much water when you consider that Omron themselves labels them for you. Sometimes.

Warning: Keep in mind that these numbers are without any load, and they really do mean ANY load. If the mouse button rests on the switch button or your finger causes it to, then the lifespan will be shortened.  Anything touching that button shortens the lifespan. Your mouse may have some slop to prevent this when your fingers are off the mouse, but as soon as you put them on it, the lifespan is probably starting to drop as the weight of your fingers remove that slop. Personally, 10M last longer than 20M for me, see my note here.

Omron has multiple ratings:
(1M) = 1million presses
(3m) = 3million presses
(5m) = 5million presses
(10M) = 10million presses
(20M) = 20million presses

Unfortunately, the only surefire way to know for certain is with the part number as shown above as they didn't always mark them.  However they often coincided with the button color or a painted dot on top.

Some of the lower numbers the details are sketchy, but we don't really care about them anyhow.
Black  – no dot – (1M) = 1million presses (not verified)
Red or Yellow button or dot (3m) = 3million (not verified)
Red or Yellow button or dot (5m) = 5million (not verified)
Gray button and/or dot - (10M) = 10million
White button and/or dot - (20M) = 20million

The colors are also referred to as tops, so when someone says a “white top” Omron, they mean it's a switch rated for 20mil. Presses.

Caution: I don't recommend relying on the button color. MS has custom switches made for them (labeled MS) which can be different and I have seen white and gray botton Omrons with no (XXM) stamped on them. These are usually older models, but it's something to keep in mind. Dots and labeling is the only surefire way to know and a while lower numbers may not say it, you can bet a 20M is going to let you know it's a 20M.

I'll put a chart at the bottom showing what is using what that I know of and if others post I will try and add them.


Other random numbers and letters in the switch part number  Example D2F L3 -T
More
Frankly, you do not want any of these on your switch, as they pertain to the soldering terminals and different ways to actuate the button, almost none of which are useful to use. Note: Levers can be removed, so if you want a specific switch in a hurry and can only find it with a lever, you can always remove it from the switch and use it without problems, just be careful removing it.

L = Hinge lever
L2 = Roller lever
L3 = simulated roller
L30 = larger simulated roller
-T = self clinching terminals (this can still work in a mouse)
-A = right angled terminals
-A1 = left angled terminals
-D3 = big solder terminals
-D = compact terminals


Machine switch Numbers
More
D2F-F-7N  is Comparable to D2F-01F  (Japanese)
D2FC-F-7N  is Comparable to D2FC-01F (Chinese)

D2F-3-7 is reportedly comparable to D2F-01F (but I suspect it's closer to D2F-01 due to lack of the N) (Japanese)
D2FC-3-7 is probably comparable to D2FC-01F (but I suspect it's closer to D2F-01 due to lack of the N) (Chinese)

Note: I do not know if the D2FC-3-7 exists, but I believe it might since the 7N has a Japanese and Chinese counterpart. A quick Google search turned up nothing.


Other Switch Brands
More
Yes, there are others that can be used. Lots in fact. Most agree that the Omrons are the best and by far the most common in quality mice, which begs the question, if they are the norm, why do people and manufacturers make such a big deal over Omrons. “Look, I have the same as everyone else!”
Various brands:
Kinzu, Kana, Himake, Panasonic, Huanos (loud according to TP4Tissue), Zippy, Qiaoh and TTF
Interesting ones:
TTF  is considered quietest
Zippy uses a coil spring so may be more durable


Popular Mice and what switches they use:
More
Almost all use a D2FC-F-7N the difference is the lifespan.
Asus
Rog Gladius = 20M (user replaceable)
ROG Spatha = 20M (user replaceable)

CoolerMaster
Storm = 10M

Logitech - Typically uses Omron 10Ms in most of their mice, however some gaming have used 20 lately.

G302 = 20M
G303 = 20M
G500 = ? (Note: double deck pcb makes it harder to replace switches)
G500S = 20M  (Note: double deck pcb makes it harder to replace switches)
G502 = unlabeled
G600 = 20M
G700 =10M (Note: double deck pcb makes it harder to replace switches)
G700S = 20M  (Note: double deck pcb makes it harder to replace switches)
G9 = 10M
G9X = 10M
G900 = 20M (possibly 10)
M705 Marathon = Himake switches

Master = 10M
MX Revolution = 10M
MX Performance = 10M

Razer
Deathadder 2013 = 10M

Steelseries
Sensei = 20M
Not all Steelseries use Omrons!


Sources
More

Thanks for your information!

Offline Winand

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 00:54:46 »
>D2F-3-7 is reportedly comparable to D2F-01F (but I suspect it's closer to D2F-01 due to lack of the N) (Japanese)

And what does N mean? The same as F? I'm going to repair my old A4 mouse just for fun. And i still don't understand if -F ones have longer lifespan (not for gaming).
Cannot choose between D2F-01F-T and D2F-F-3-7, the latter is a little bit cheaper.
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 February 2017, 02:29:21 by Winand »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 02:52:06 »
>D2F-3-7 is reportedly comparable to D2F-01F (but I suspect it's closer to D2F-01 due to lack of the N) (Japanese)

And what does N mean? The same as F? I'm going to repair my old A4 mouse just for fun. And i still don't understand if -F ones have longer lifespan (not for gaming).
Cannot choose between D2F-01F-T and D2F-F-3-7, the latter is a little bit cheaper.


It doesn't matter in terms of actual usage....   and I've not seen any OFFICIAL sources of the f37..

WHereas mouser / digikey sells the 01f.. so you know it's legit..



But imho, if your mouse WORKS, there's no point in doing swaps..

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 06:15:54 »
And what does N mean? The same as F? I'm going to repair my old A4 mouse just for fun. And i still don't understand if -F ones have longer lifespan (not for gaming).
Cannot choose between D2F-01F-T and D2F-F-3-7, the latter is a little bit cheaper.
The fact that your A4 mouse has them, it stands to reason N is NOT Japanese as there is pretty much zero chance your A4 mouse has Japanese switches. They would probably double the cost of making the mouse (not joking!). Which confirms my theory that the N stands for soft springs.

As for lifespan it has nothing to do with the spring rate.
Newer switches are printed (painted), older switches used a colored dots or plunger.
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Offline Winand

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 07:27:41 »
Sorry for misleading. It's A4tech NB-90 wireless/battery-less mouse. I have random double-clicks, etc. I've recently tried to repair its microswitch using this guide. It works but not for long i'm sure.
I'll have to disassemble the mouse again to see which switches are used. I thought that most of them are interchangeable, aren't they?

UPD.
A4Tech NB-90D --- HUANO 0.05A 30V DC
A4Tech SWOP-35PU --- HUANO 1A 125V AC
159368-0159370-1
So. Am I right that i should install in NB-90D an Omron switch labeled with "-01". According to D2F specs these are 30V DC.
« Last Edit: Thu, 02 February 2017, 14:21:48 by Winand »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 11:48:42 »
Sorry for misleading. It's A4tech NB-90 wireless/battery-less mouse. I have random double-clicks, etc. I've recently tried to repair its microswitch using this guide. It works but not for long i'm sure.
I'll have to disassemble the mouse again to see which switches are used. I thought that most of them are interchangeable, aren't they?

For repairs,  check out my WMO mouse guide, it contains detailed soldering instructions for these switches...  Timing and procedure is very important.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 17:17:49 »
Sorry for misleading. It's A4tech NB-90 wireless/battery-less mouse. I have random double-clicks, etc. I've recently tried to repair its microswitch using this guide. It works but not for long i'm sure.
I'll have to disassemble the mouse again to see which switches are used. I thought that most of them are interchangeable, aren't they?

That guide you followed is complete garbage.
You aren't going to re-bend a spring and have it function right ever again. It may for for a short time, but the spring is no longer in spec and will fall back out of of spec again. The spring is compromised structurally and each time you mess with it, it's lifespan will get shorter and shorter.

As for the switch, quite a few mice (especially smaller or oddball) use Panasonic style switches, so you're going to have to dive back inside and see what you have. Don't assume they are Omrons, especially in a lower end mouse.

Companies who buy out of Chinese catalogs, which I suspect A4tech does, are even more likely to use the Panasonic or even something more off the wall as Chinese companies come up with some really odd stuff.
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Offline Winand

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 01 February 2017, 23:16:29 »
As for the switch, quite a few mice (especially smaller or oddball) use Panasonic style switches, so you're going to have to dive back inside and see what you have. Don't assume they are Omrons, especially in a lower end mouse.
Companies who buy out of Chinese catalogs, which I suspect A4tech does, are even more likely to use the Panasonic or even something more off the wall as Chinese companies come up with some really odd stuff.

Both A4Tech mice i have use Huanos. They look very similar to Omrons. And "Panasonic style" square switches A4 uses for additional buttons.
Could you please answer the question about specifications in my updated post?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 03 February 2017, 00:28:49 »
There's really no documentation telling how to go from Huanos to Omrons interchange, there may be measurements from Huanos somewhere but if there is one thing I learned researching this is that documentation is lacking.

Design-wise, these match the Japanese switches, however, without a micrometer it's impossible to eyeball, so you will need to just install and try them, if they are super sensitive, then it needs Chinese switches rather than Japanese.

If you want to try Japanese, you want d2f-01, for Chinese, d2fc-01, keep in mind, it wouldn't surprise me if it originally has soft springs (d2fc-01f).

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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 03 February 2017, 05:15:57 »
hahahaha.  micrometer?

you'd have to cut the legs off the switch in order to get it in there..

 digi caliper would work, buh.... ur measuring by hand feel with either tool..   no machining precision,  but you'd be pretty much within 0.1 to 0.2 mm

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 03 February 2017, 20:12:35 »
Sometimes you have to get creative.  :))
Actually, I meant to say digital caliper.

As for the switches and precision, you're measuring plastic, clipped together, and then soldered onto a plate... You aren't going to get machinist precision, but 0.1mm is more than enough for what we need here.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 04 February 2017, 04:57:36 »

A4Tech NB-90D --- HUANO 0.05A 30V DC
A4Tech SWOP-35PU --- HUANO 1A 125V AC
So. Am I right that i should install in NB-90D an Omron switch labeled with "-01". According to D2F specs these are 30V DC.



You don't have to worry about  SPECS besides the resistence, the force..   because it's all 5v,  and there's no Current restriction because this isn't in line with a power supply, it's a signal line.

Offline gallowgeek

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 28 February 2017, 09:51:34 »
Since most popular gaming mice use Omron switches, the information you gave is a godsend. Thank you TS!

Offline OfTheWild

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #42 on: Tue, 28 February 2017, 16:58:22 »
This is some great reading material, thanks for gathering it all up. I replaced the switches in my MS Optical based on TP4's how-to and it was a vast improvement going to the D2F-01F switches.
-Dana

Offline Winand

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 00:53:12 »
I asked ebay seller about d2f-01f-t ($4 for 5pcs) And they answered that it is made in China. Strange.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 03:53:11 »
This is some great reading material, thanks for gathering it all up. I replaced the switches in my MS Optical based on TP4's how-to and it was a vast improvement going to the D2F-01F switches.
You're welcome and congrats!


I asked ebay seller about d2f-01f-t ($4 for 5pcs) And they answered that it is made in China. Strange.
He's just reselling, he doesn't know, or care.
Note in the pictures that the Chinese models all have a C in the model number, as well as China stamped on them, but they also have smaller cross holes.
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 March 2017, 03:54:44 by Leslieann »
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Offline nyunyu

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 06:57:24 »


That's a chinese D2F-J01F: it does NOT have C in the model number, and it used similar shell as regular japanese D2F-s: clamps are on the long side, and they have big hole)

They were manufactured under Omron's license by a chinese company, and Gigabyte used them in their mice ~10 years ago.

You can find these switches now under Qiaoh name: http://www.qiaoh.com/en/product-show.asp?id=132
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 March 2017, 07:03:03 by nyunyu »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 09:48:59 »
This is some great reading material, thanks for gathering it all up. I replaced the switches in my MS Optical based on TP4's how-to and it was a vast improvement going to the D2F-01F switches.
Show Image


u still got 3 more switches to replace there.. /excited

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 01 March 2017, 13:00:54 »
They were manufactured under Omron's license by a chinese company, and Gigabyte used them in their mice ~10 years ago.
Ahh, it's an older one.
By the way, I looked it up, the switch has China embedded in the top surface (I.E. clearly labeled Chinese if viewed from the top down.).

I'm sure this and fakes coming out of China are why Omron changed their labeling, older ones were difficult to make heads or tails from.
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 March 2017, 13:03:27 by Leslieann »
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Offline nyunyu

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #48 on: Thu, 02 March 2017, 13:52:41 »
Logitech started using D2FC-F-7N series around 2001 (MX500/700 already had them in 2002), so the D2F-J01F is actually newer model.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #49 on: Thu, 02 March 2017, 21:57:24 »
Logitech started using D2FC-F-7N series around 2001 (MX500/700 already had them in 2002), so the D2F-J01F is actually newer model.

Older as in pre-dating the current labeling system.
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Offline gallowgeek

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #50 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 08:44:14 »
I actually like the feel of the Logitech gaming mice as opposed to the Razer ones. Not that I am a fan of the said company, but I just like the feel of the mouse buttons. Even though they're both using the Omron switches, I just feel that the Logitech G502 that I have has a softer feel to it in every mouse press.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #51 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 21:21:35 »
I actually like the feel of the Logitech gaming mice as opposed to the Razer ones. Not that I am a fan of the said company, but I just like the feel of the mouse buttons. Even though they're both using the Omron switches, I just feel that the Logitech G502 that I have has a softer feel to it in every mouse press.

IDK if razer does it,  but logitech will feel more shallow and lighter because the prong which contacts the switch has a specific h shape, where the bars prevent overtravel  in engaging the switch.

This is good for the switch, but it will reduce the travel

Offline Aelon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #52 on: Sat, 08 April 2017, 13:32:28 »
I recently bought 10 OMRON "D2FC-F-7N (20M)(OF)" switches for my ASUS ROG Gladius Mouse.



I know that 20M is 20 Million click lifespan. However do you know what (OF) means in paranthesis ?


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #53 on: Sat, 08 April 2017, 14:49:37 »
I recently bought 10 OMRON "D2FC-F-7N (20M)(OF)" switches for my ASUS ROG Gladius Mouse.

Show Image


I know that 20M is 20 Million click lifespan. However do you know what (OF) means in paranthesis ?


not in the spec sheet . don't know.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #54 on: Sat, 08 April 2017, 18:38:38 »
I have no idea, but can only assume it's a special batch made for s company, for example, the spec sheet doesn't list the "M" variant of the switch which is made specifically for Microsoft mice.
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Offline Rameau

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #55 on: Sun, 09 April 2017, 10:05:59 »
What do you say about this new one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/391705302200?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Another thing - I read on Omron's site that the (1M) (for example) it an indication of the mechanical lifespan of the switch, while the electrical lifespan is usually much lower (for example, the electrical lifespan of the one with 1mil mechanical lifespan, is only 100k)

Offline Aelon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #56 on: Sun, 09 April 2017, 11:17:38 »
What do you say about this new one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/391705302200?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Another thing - I read on Omron's site that the (1M) (for example) it an indication of the mechanical lifespan of the switch, while the electrical lifespan is usually much lower (for example, the electrical lifespan of the one with 1mil mechanical lifespan, is only 100k)

I am no expert on OMRON switches but I think these blue buttoned (50M) ones are very stiff.
Where do I know ? Well, my Asus ROG Gladius mouse has those switches inside for the "Forward" and "Backward" buttons. They are blue buttoned and very stiff to press. I think it's the tradeof for such a high lifespan value.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #57 on: Sun, 09 April 2017, 15:26:01 »
While researching the OF and K switch, I found a little documentation on the D2F-F-7N and confirmed that it is a 75g (low spring pressure) switch (this info has been added to the guide).
Still not sure if the number refers to assembly line packaging, but would make sense as Omron also builds automation lines.


As for the K switch, apparently these have been nicknamed "blue dots" and are being touted as a 50m direct replacement for the the D2F-F-7N, including spring pressure. Remember, you are used to operating these with a lot more leverage, so a brand new switch in your hand will feel very stiff, that said, the documentation claiming these are a direct replacement for D2F-F-7N comes from Chinese sellers and as many of us are well aware, some of these guys will tell you it folds laundry and makes you meals if they thought it would sell you on it.
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Offline Rameau

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #58 on: Sun, 09 April 2017, 18:57:50 »
So there is no trusted source regarding this K version?

And what about the mechanical\electrical lifespan variation?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #59 on: Sun, 09 April 2017, 19:01:49 »
So there is no trusted source regarding this K version?

And what about the mechanical\electrical lifespan variation?



You only need to worry about lifespan  if you have the proper soldering equipment and technique..


Because I've noticed that most people are putting in these switches outside of the proper soldering guidelines..

Check my WMO ultimate thread below for soldering guide for the omron switches.

Offline Rameau

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #60 on: Mon, 10 April 2017, 03:46:38 »
I actually did read the guide to properly soldering the OMRON switches and soldered accordingly, so I don't think this is an issue atm, but thanks!

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #61 on: Mon, 10 April 2017, 05:20:34 »
So there is no trusted source regarding this K version?

And what about the mechanical\electrical lifespan variation?
Because this is (what I assume to be) a machine assembled, bulk ordered part, Omron won't just hand out documentation on it as they don't expect the general public to need it. 

As for lifespan, it's right on the side of the switch.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #62 on: Mon, 10 April 2017, 18:10:54 »
So there is no trusted source regarding this K version?

And what about the mechanical\electrical lifespan variation?
Because this is (what I assume to be) a machine assembled, bulk ordered part, Omron won't just hand out documentation on it as they don't expect the general public to need it. 

As for lifespan, it's right on the side of the switch.



keep in mind that number is marked assuming non- full travel,  as in the switch will be actuated but not be pushed all the way down..


In certain mice like mx518/ g400,  the button flap which goes over the switch in an h shape to prevent over travel..


in mice like the microsoft intellimouse, it's a flat bar which goes full-travel to the bottom out the switch..



So in theory ,  the same switches will last MILLIONS of times longer in a logitech mouse vs the microsoft intellimouse..



IN THE END.. this number simply doesn't matter to the end user, because replacement is cheap.


Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #63 on: Mon, 10 April 2017, 19:30:30 »
IN THE END.. this number simply doesn't matter to the end user, because replacement is cheap.
Agreed, the number is almost irrelevant, but not because of price (ever try changing one in a G700?), but because lifespan is much more depending on how you abuse it, which is ridiculously easy to do.
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Offline MarvinJamesNL

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #64 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 06:54:09 »
Hi all,

My apologies if this post is in the wrong thread, but it's my best guess.

I have opened up my Corsair M65 Pro RGB to have a look "under the hood".
So I did find the expected D2FC-F-7N(20M) switches as the main buttons.

However, the buttons on the side (the ones you click by using your thumb) show no model or brand name except for a logo.
I took a picture of them:


I tried a "reverse image search" of the logo, but I come up empty.
Are these also Omron switches? And if not, does someone know what I'm looking at here?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #65 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 07:59:32 »
Hi all,

My apologies if this post is in the wrong thread, but it's my best guess.

I have opened up my Corsair M65 Pro RGB to have a look "under the hood".
So I did find the expected D2FC-F-7N(20M) switches as the main buttons.

However, the buttons on the side (the ones you click by using your thumb) show no model or brand name except for a logo.
I took a picture of them:
Show Image


I tried a "reverse image search" of the logo, but I come up empty.
Are these also Omron switches? And if not, does someone know what I'm looking at here?

those  are not omron.


However,  they're probably just as good..

Omron's patent is out on this switch, so they've been thoroughly cloned by many many other manufacturers..



KEEP IN MIND, there is nothing special about official omrons..


We'll assume they have somewhat stricter quality control..  but, even then, the manufacturers of mice are only using them because they're afraid of people like me making threads about Not getting omrons on the internet..


It's a cult following issue for us die-hards.. hahahahaha

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #66 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 16:24:02 »
those  are not omron.

However,  they're probably just as good..
This...
Omrons are not god, it's a mechanical item which can easily be reproduced, especially when a patent and tech documents give all you need to copy it.

If they are working and you don't hate the feel, leave them alone. These switches are actually quite delicate to pressure and heat.
If they are damaged, swap them with what is there or the equivalent Omron.
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Offline OkinaDaikon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #67 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 18:00:42 »
All I can say is thanks for this insightful thread, I always wanted to learn more about mice switches!

I has a couple gaming mice where the switches were acting up, but I never know which switches I should get as a replacement. This will definitely help! :thumb:

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #68 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 20:47:09 »
Glad you found it helpful. :)
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Offline MarvinJamesNL

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #69 on: Tue, 09 May 2017, 04:45:05 »
those  are not omron.

However,  they're probably just as good..
This...
Omrons are not god, it's a mechanical item which can easily be reproduced, especially when a patent and tech documents give all you need to copy it.

If they are working and you don't hate the feel, leave them alone. These switches are actually quite delicate to pressure and heat.
If they are damaged, swap them with what is there or the equivalent Omron.

Oh of course! They work fine. And I can imagine they might take "cheaper" switches for the side buttons as in general I assume they are not used as much as the main LMB and RMB.

It was purely from an information perspective that I wanted to figure what switches they used in this area of the mouse, because I'm doing a review of it. :)



Offline P3t4

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #70 on: Wed, 10 May 2017, 16:04:08 »
I got some new empiric data on the durability of the d2f-01f-t: 6 months of hanzo gameplay :P I'm about to swap them to new ones since the button cuts the circuit before the click while releasing pressure.

Offline Winand

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #71 on: Mon, 15 May 2017, 12:20:04 »
(on the previous page) i ordered d2f-01f-t but they sent me d2f-f.) though the pictures of these two were mixed up on that ebay page.
It is really made in Japan. At least there's "omron japan" title.
p.s. I thought it's harder to solder a switch, though i'm not sure if i've done it completely right.)
p.p.s. for some reason old good a4tech feels better than new cool M705
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 May 2017, 14:01:01 by Winand »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #72 on: Mon, 15 May 2017, 19:20:55 »
(on the previous page) i ordered d2f-01f-t but they sent me d2f-f.) though the pictures of these two were mixed up on that ebay page.
It is really made in Japan. At least there's "omron japan" title.
p.s. I thought it's harder to solder a switch, though i'm not sure if i've done it completely right.)
p.p.s. for some reason old good a4tech feels better than new cool M705


doesn't matter that much.. but ebay's unreliable, many counterfeits   if you want to get REAL OMRONS  for SURZIES...

Mouser or digikey is the place to get official..


That said...   Even if they're fake... again, they're probably 100% just as good.. hahahahahha

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #73 on: Mon, 15 May 2017, 19:22:42 »
Next time you do it.. make sure to get a solder sucker, and get the old solder off first..


Offline Rameau

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #74 on: Fri, 07 July 2017, 06:32:53 »
I came across a new model:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-OMRON-D2FC-F-K-50M-Ultra-Subminiature-Switches-RAZER-Logitech-APPLE-Mouse-/112068354027?hash=item1a17cb5feb:g:UbQAAOSwIgNXlEh8

And I saw that Logitech claim that they use in the new G903 (vs the G900) a new switch which lasts 50m click (vs 20m in the G900). Do you think this is legit?
I bought a few of the 50m, but they weight less than the 20m (easier to click), and it seems odd. They feel like the 5\10m...

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #75 on: Fri, 07 July 2017, 15:56:18 »
I came across a new model:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-OMRON-D2FC-F-K-50M-Ultra-Subminiature-Switches-RAZER-Logitech-APPLE-Mouse-/112068354027?hash=item1a17cb5feb:g:UbQAAOSwIgNXlEh8

And I saw that Logitech claim that they use in the new G903 (vs the G900) a new switch which lasts 50m click (vs 20m in the G900). Do you think this is legit?
I bought a few of the 50m, but they weight less than the 20m (easier to click), and it seems odd. They feel like the 5\10m...

The 50m would only work in mice designed specifically to  minimize overtravel like logitech's.

If you put it in a Microsoft Wheel mouse optical for example, which always full travels on the click,    it would never even get close to 50m.

Offline Rameau

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #76 on: Sun, 09 July 2017, 03:31:07 »
I came across a new model:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-OMRON-D2FC-F-K-50M-Ultra-Subminiature-Switches-RAZER-Logitech-APPLE-Mouse-/112068354027?hash=item1a17cb5feb:g:UbQAAOSwIgNXlEh8

And I saw that Logitech claim that they use in the new G903 (vs the G900) a new switch which lasts 50m click (vs 20m in the G900). Do you think this is legit?
I bought a few of the 50m, but they weight less than the 20m (easier to click), and it seems odd. They feel like the 5\10m...

The 50m would only work in mice designed specifically to  minimize overtravel like logitech's.

If you put it in a Microsoft Wheel mouse optical for example, which always full travels on the click,    it would never even get close to 50m.

What's overtravel? What's full travel? Am I better off with the regular 20mil in the G900 or is this 50mil version better?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #77 on: Sun, 09 July 2017, 07:50:59 »
I came across a new model:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-OMRON-D2FC-F-K-50M-Ultra-Subminiature-Switches-RAZER-Logitech-APPLE-Mouse-/112068354027?hash=item1a17cb5feb:g:UbQAAOSwIgNXlEh8

And I saw that Logitech claim that they use in the new G903 (vs the G900) a new switch which lasts 50m click (vs 20m in the G900). Do you think this is legit?
I bought a few of the 50m, but they weight less than the 20m (easier to click), and it seems odd. They feel like the 5\10m...

The 50m would only work in mice designed specifically to  minimize overtravel like logitech's.

If you put it in a Microsoft Wheel mouse optical for example, which always full travels on the click,    it would never even get close to 50m.

What's overtravel? What's full travel? Am I better off with the regular 20mil in the G900 or is this 50mil version better?



overtravel is OVER what is necessary to complete the actuation

full travel is the maximum amount of travel



If you have a regular g900, stick to the orginals unless you know that the dimensions on the new 50mil are the same,   the travel characteristics especially have to match.

Offline rich1051414

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #78 on: Fri, 06 October 2017, 10:46:52 »
Both the mouse buttons on my G900 died the same way, they lost their click and the weight of my finger would actuate them. I broke it down and it uses D2FC-F-7N(20M). I call BS on that 20 million claim. I replaced them with japanese D2F-F switches, rated at 10 mil since they feel tighter and snappier than the 20 million switches.
It bothers me that logitech would use the chinese switches on such a high end mouse...

Regardless the D2F-F Japanese gray switches feel better than this mouse has ever felt. Make sure when you replace the switch you make sure the switch is pushed all the way in bottoming out in the daughter board, as the tolerances are tight.
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 October 2017, 10:52:01 by rich1051414 »
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #79 on: Fri, 06 October 2017, 15:28:08 »
Both the mouse buttons on my G900 died the same way, they lost their click and the weight of my finger would actuate them. I broke it down and it uses D2FC-F-7N(20M). I call BS on that 20 million claim. I replaced them with japanese D2F-F switches, rated at 10 mil since they feel tighter and snappier than the 20 million switches.
It bothers me that logitech would use the chinese switches on such a high end mouse...

Regardless the D2F-F Japanese gray switches feel better than this mouse has ever felt. Make sure when you replace the switch you make sure the switch is pushed all the way in bottoming out in the daughter board, as the tolerances are tight.


Hahahahah,
That's not how it works.


If it broke on you, in what you consider TOO EARLY.. You're at fault for clicking too hard.

The rating is @ 0% over travel.. it is not a real world use rating.


Meaning if you pressed it down PERFECTLY to the point of actuation and let go.

If you press it down any further,  the number of total possible presses decreases "Exponentially"


This is the nature of mechanical tolerance..

It has nothing to do with China vs Japan.


Those switches are rated by Logitech internally, They're the ones that give go ahead on the 20M labeling, so when they say 20M,  they mean 20M,  but again, it's under very SPECIFIC testing conditions. NOT real-world conditions.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #80 on: Fri, 06 October 2017, 18:42:53 »
Both the mouse buttons on my G900 died the same way, they lost their click and the weight of my finger would actuate them. I broke it down and it uses D2FC-F-7N(20M). I call BS on that 20 million claim. I replaced them with japanese D2F-F switches, rated at 10 mil since they feel tighter and snappier than the 20 million switches.
It bothers me that logitech would use the chinese switches on such a high end mouse...

Regardless the D2F-F Japanese gray switches feel better than this mouse has ever felt. Make sure when you replace the switch you make sure the switch is pushed all the way in bottoming out in the daughter board, as the tolerances are tight.

I responded in your other thread as well, but suffice to say, these are not cheap switches. Worse, the switches you installed are pretty much the exact same switch. Why does it feel better? Because it's not damaged.


Those switches are rated by Logitech internally, They're the ones that give go ahead on the 20M labeling, so when they say 20M,  they mean 20M,  but again, it's under very SPECIFIC testing conditions. NOT real-world conditions.
Omron rates them.
However, Logitech does independent testing to verify it before they used it on their packaging.
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Offline Landcaps

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #81 on: Fri, 06 October 2017, 23:03:50 »
I actually like the feel of the Logitech gaming mice as opposed to the Razer ones. Not that I am a fan of the said company, but I just like the feel of the mouse buttons. Even though they're both using the Omron switches, I just feel that the Logitech G502 that I have has a softer feel to it in every mouse press.

I also prefer my logitech g502 compare to razer deathadder. i used razer deathadder for 3-4months and start chattering and g502 for 1.5 years without problem.
but i think it's also very common problem with switches. however, I'm most likely heard razer mice chattering than logitech. not sure why.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #82 on: Mon, 16 October 2017, 17:43:41 »
Honestly , I am liking Huanos white dot more and more...


The feel is   in between  D2FC and D2F-01F

It has the Deeper travel like the D2F-01F,    but it has a bright clicks like D2FC, even slightly brighter.

Offline maylily

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #83 on: Sun, 22 October 2017, 00:23:44 »
thanks guy, i noted, w8 until my mouse need it

Offline Kolthy

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #84 on: Sat, 17 February 2018, 17:43:43 »
Can all switches work in any mouse ?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #85 on: Sat, 17 February 2018, 17:59:49 »
Kind of... There are d2f switches with bent pins to sit at an angle and levers and wheels on them. However, the d2f body is a standard size, everything else is either internal changes (lifespan and spring pressure) or external (bent pins for sitting on it's side or has a lever attached).

Basically, if it's a d2f and looks correct, odds are it will work, even if it's not a 100% perfect match.
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Offline swiftey

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #86 on: Sun, 18 February 2018, 08:22:05 »
Hello guys. Im having a problem with middle mouse button on my a4 tech bloody, that is too hard to press. Im thinking of replacing it, but as i can see from YT, those are not standard switches, but little bit taller (maybe japanese, or with some kind of plastic base.. idk). So does anyone recognize those switches, are they standard and can i find it somehere? (softer version of it). I dont want to tear up my mouse and void waranty to find out that is imposible to find replacement. Thanks a lot.

t=190s   (~2:05)

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #87 on: Sun, 18 February 2018, 11:59:50 »
Hello guys. Im having a problem with middle mouse button on my a4 tech bloody, that is too hard to press. Im thinking of replacing it, but as i can see from YT, those are not standard switches, but little bit taller (maybe japanese, or with some kind of plastic base.. idk). So does anyone recognize those switches, are they standard and can i find it somehere? (softer version of it). I dont want to tear up my mouse and void waranty to find out that is imposible to find replacement. Thanks a lot.

t=190s   (~2:05)



If it IS a little taller,  just fold printer paper in 4 folds,  then cut little pieces the size of the switch.  Then you put little holes where the copper legs go into the paper using a mechanical pencil 0.5mm.

THEN, you put the little papers under the switch until you get the right height..

Each piece of paper is ~0.1mm..  if you have a digital caliper, this is even easier to get perfect.. it's ~ $10 for a cheepee.

Don't worry about accuracy,  even cheepees are accurate within 0.1mm.. 

Just tie the switch with a twist tie to the pcb while you solder the first 2 legs on the outside.. 

Then remove the twist tie, and solder the middle..

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #88 on: Sun, 18 February 2018, 16:43:16 »
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the base is just that, a base that slips over the pins, which based on the pic, are probably long enough. Probably.
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Offline MikeM

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #89 on: Fri, 30 March 2018, 15:17:52 »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #90 on: Fri, 30 March 2018, 16:31:18 »
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Offline mLocke

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #91 on: Sat, 31 March 2018, 15:46:55 »


Great Thread.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #92 on: Sat, 31 March 2018, 19:04:14 »
Thanks.

A note to that picture...
I know sponges are pretty common to clean irons, however, it can also cause micro fractures on the tip. It's not likely to break, but will cause it to be harder and harder to keep clean, eventually needing replacement.

What some do is clean it with brass shavings, and then if you want to protect it, apply fresh solder before putting it away. I don't always go that far, but my tips have lasted longer since I stopped using sponges.
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Offline rich1051414

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #93 on: Sat, 31 March 2018, 20:15:10 »
Thanks.

A note to that picture...
I know sponges are pretty common to clean irons, however, it can also cause micro fractures on the tip. It's not likely to break, but will cause it to be harder and harder to keep clean, eventually needing replacement.

What some do is clean it with brass shavings, and then if you want to protect it, apply fresh solder before putting it away. I don't always go that far, but my tips have lasted longer since I stopped using sponges.
Grab some brass wool or wad up some copper mesh, and shove it in a can or into your soldering iron stand if it has a place for it.

When you need to clean the tip, just stab the wool. It comes out as clean as wiping on a wet sponge, but your tips will last WAY longer.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #94 on: Sat, 31 March 2018, 20:27:36 »
Thanks.

A note to that picture...
I know sponges are pretty common to clean irons, however, it can also cause micro fractures on the tip. It's not likely to break, but will cause it to be harder and harder to keep clean, eventually needing replacement.

What some do is clean it with brass shavings, and then if you want to protect it, apply fresh solder before putting it away. I don't always go that far, but my tips have lasted longer since I stopped using sponges.

I recall this had to do with water and rapid cooling, it's not the sponge's fault..

Leave Spongee alone !!


Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #95 on: Sun, 01 April 2018, 03:15:27 »
Grab some brass wool or wad up some copper mesh, and shove it in a can or into your soldering iron stand if it has a place for it.

When you need to clean the tip, just stab the wool. It comes out as clean as wiping on a wet sponge, but your tips will last WAY longer.
Seriously, it's AMAZING the difference.

We had a Weller station of some sort, using a sponge we averaged a tip every month, month and a half. Then the Weller died, support for them has gone to hell, so never again. We bought a Hakko 880 to replace it, the first month or so we used the sponge and killed that tip. We stopped using the sponge and have not killed a tip in a year, we even bought a second 880 and have yet to kill a tip on that as well. We actually lost the spare tips we had because we stopped needing them.


I recall this had to do with water and rapid cooling, it's not the sponge's fault..
Correct.
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Offline rich1051414

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #96 on: Sun, 01 April 2018, 08:50:23 »
The only thing my sponge does in my hakko 880 station does is act as a lid for the other soldering tips I store under it :P
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Offline Grissess

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #97 on: Sun, 08 April 2018, 16:07:49 »
Just wanted to give you another data point: my (now quite old) Logitech G500 indeed has a "D2FC-F-7N(10M)" pair of Omron switches. I'm discovering this today, because it seems like they've finally reached their usable limit--not too long after having to fix the infamous "cable break" bug at the connector :) . I took some pictures for posterity, if someone wants them.

Thanks for the excellent writeup! I used this to confirm that some D2F-01F-T switches a friend had lying around would be at least an adequate replacement for now. I suppose this will come in handy again if those end up not working out for some reason :)

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #98 on: Sun, 08 April 2018, 17:52:07 »
Just wanted to give you another data point: my (now quite old) Logitech G500 indeed has a "D2FC-F-7N(10M)" pair of Omron switches. I'm discovering this today, because it seems like they've finally reached their usable limit--not too long after having to fix the infamous "cable break" bug at the connector :) . I took some pictures for posterity, if someone wants them.

Thanks for the excellent writeup! I used this to confirm that some D2F-01F-T switches a friend had lying around would be at least an adequate replacement for now. I suppose this will come in handy again if those end up not working out for some reason :)

Still using G500 , that's pretty dedicated after all these years..

I'm using mainly my ergopwn 9000,  and a g403 on the side.


Offline zennon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #99 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 11:35:19 »
I replaced my Logitech Marathon m705 switches yesterday after spending quite some time desoldering, especially the square joint, wouldn't melt! But i did it and it worked!

Today i tried to do the same on a cheaper mouse Logitech M510, it went as a breeze and i was so confident. But went i turned it on, both clicks didn't work, i replaced both. I noticed that the switches were Kailh and i replaced with the Omron, could they not be compatible? Other thing that i might have screwed up when desoldering is i removed a metal ring around a joint in the back.

Now that i've reopened it and examined the joints, i'm pretty sure it's that metal ring that i removed since the solder doesn't stay down but rather form like a ball on top. If that's the problem, does anyone know how i could replace that metal ring? I thought all circuits are supposed on the other side?
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 July 2018, 11:47:47 by zennon »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #100 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 11:39:25 »
I replaced my Logitech Marathon m705 switches yesterday after spending quite some time desoldering, especially the square joint, wouldn't melt! But i did it and it worked!

Today i tried to do the same on a cheaper mouse Logitech M510, it went as a breeze and i was so confident. But went i turned it on, both clicks didn't work, i replaced both. I noticed that the switches were Kailh and i replaced with the Omron, could they not be compatible? Other thing that i might have screwed up when desoldering is i think i removed a metal ring around a joint in the back.

No, they're definitely compatible.

might've soldered too long and melted the switchs internally.

Or the Traces might've been burnt out.


Did you use a solder sucker to reduce the total soldering time ?

Offline JianYang

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #101 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 12:04:58 »
I replaced my Logitech Marathon m705 switches yesterday after spending quite some time desoldering, especially the square joint, wouldn't melt! But i did it and it worked!

Today i tried to do the same on a cheaper mouse Logitech M510, it went as a breeze and i was so confident. But went i turned it on, both clicks didn't work, i replaced both. I noticed that the switches were Kailh and i replaced with the Omron, could they not be compatible? Other thing that i might have screwed up when desoldering is i removed a metal ring around a joint in the back.

Now that i've reopened it and examined the joints, i'm pretty sure it's that metal ring that i removed since the solder doesn't stay down but rather form like a ball on top. If that's the problem, does anyone know how i could replace that metal ring? I thought all circuits are supposed on the other side?

Always add some leaded solder when desoldering, the solder from the factory will be lead-free and adding lead will make it a lot easier to unsolder.

You will have to repair the damaged traces with wire or something like that. Having a picture of the damage might help.

Offline zennon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #102 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 12:27:27 »
I replaced my Logitech Marathon m705 switches yesterday after spending quite some time desoldering, especially the square joint, wouldn't melt! But i did it and it worked!

Today i tried to do the same on a cheaper mouse Logitech M510, it went as a breeze and i was so confident. But went i turned it on, both clicks didn't work, i replaced both. I noticed that the switches were Kailh and i replaced with the Omron, could they not be compatible? Other thing that i might have screwed up when desoldering is i removed a metal ring around a joint in the back.

Now that i've reopened it and examined the joints, i'm pretty sure it's that metal ring that i removed since the solder doesn't stay down but rather form like a ball on top. If that's the problem, does anyone know how i could replace that metal ring? I thought all circuits are supposed on the other side?

Always add some leaded solder when desoldering, the solder from the factory will be lead-free and adding lead will make it a lot easier to unsolder.

You will have to repair the damaged traces with wire or something like that. Having a picture of the damage might help.

Here is a pic :

How to repair that metal ring? I use a pump to remove the solder it came just out with it.

Offline zennon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #103 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 12:29:15 »
199642-0

Pic is the current state. I removed the solder from those middle joints. How to repair those traces?

After further research, those are called eyelets. Do they come off easily when desoldering and what are the most likely cause? It can't be me when both middle joint eyelets came off and not the other 2, right?
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 July 2018, 12:45:05 by zennon »

Offline JianYang

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #104 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 13:00:32 »
(Attachment Link)

Pic is the current state. I removed the solder from those middle joints. How to repair those traces?

After further research, those are called eyelets. Do they come off easily when desoldering and what are the most likely cause? It can't be me when both middle joint eyelets came off and not the other 2, right?

The cause is usually delamination from too much heat, mixed with some physical abuse. You are going to have to trace those tracks out and repair with thin wire. I cannot see from the pic where they use to go.

Offline zennon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #105 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 13:03:21 »
(Attachment Link)

Pic is the current state. I removed the solder from those middle joints. How to repair those traces?

After further research, those are called eyelets. Do they come off easily when desoldering and what are the most likely cause? It can't be me when both middle joint eyelets came off and not the other 2, right?

The cause is usually delamination from too much heat, mixed with some physical abuse. You are going to have to trace those tracks out and repair with thin wire. I cannot see from the pic where they use to go.

I have a different board, can i salvage the eyelets? If so how to remove them?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #106 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 21:10:23 »
I'm guessing the metal ring was the pcb trace.
If so the only fix is to find where the ring, and trance connect to, and run a wire from the switch post to the  spot it used to connect (a jumper wire).
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Offline Boromir

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #107 on: Sat, 21 July 2018, 13:45:48 »
Ordered few D2FC-F-7N switches from ebay for my g700s but what I got are labeled D2FC-F-N and despite the furious googling I can't seem to find any mentions of what that missing 7 means (maybe it's mentioned here already but I'm blind)? I opened one and from quick glance it seems the same as pictures of 7N ones. Should work just as well?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #108 on: Sat, 21 July 2018, 14:31:24 »
Ordered few D2FC-F-7N switches from ebay for my g700s but what I got are labeled D2FC-F-N and despite the furious googling I can't seem to find any mentions of what that missing 7 means (maybe it's mentioned here already but I'm blind)? I opened one and from quick glance it seems the same as pictures of 7N ones. Should work just as well?

Ordered few D2FC-F-7N switches from ebay for my g700s but what I got are labeled D2FC-F-N and despite the furious googling I can't seem to find any mentions of what that missing 7 means (maybe it's mentioned here already but I'm blind)? I opened one and from quick glance it seems the same as pictures of 7N ones. Should work just as well?

probably slight difference in Plunger height.

You'll need a mitutoyo if you want to know for sure though..


Offline Boromir

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #109 on: Sat, 21 July 2018, 17:30:21 »
probably slight difference in Plunger height.

You'll need a mitutoyo if you want to know for sure though..



I do have digital caliper at work but I do not have spare 7N that I could compare to and I rather not open my only working (apart from random double clicks) mouse before I have replacement switch for it. Do you think the (possible) height difference is big enough to matter?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #110 on: Sat, 21 July 2018, 18:35:13 »
probably slight difference in Plunger height.

You'll need a mitutoyo if you want to know for sure though..



I do have digital caliper at work but I do not have spare 7N that I could compare to and I rather not open my only working (apart from random double clicks) mouse before I have replacement switch for it. Do you think the (possible) height difference is big enough to matter?


Depending on the mouse it may or may not matter.

For example, the D2F japan omron is too tall for alot of logitech mice..

While it works fine in Microsoft Classic IME/IMO mices from over 20 yrs ago...


I think you can safely just put it in..


Make sure to be fast on the soldering, because these switches have a 3sec max soldering time..

The traces on these boards are also very thin.

I Recommend 650F.. soldering temperature.


Offline 537Z3R

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #111 on: Wed, 28 November 2018, 06:50:58 »
Where can I find what omron switch should I buy for a Razer Mamba with a left click switch that is failing?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #112 on: Wed, 28 November 2018, 13:45:42 »
Where can I find what omron switch should I buy for a Razer Mamba with a left click switch that is failing?


If it's just the switch, and you're comfortable with soldering small traces,  it's buyable..

It's really easy to over-solder/ over-heat omrons,  people don't realize this, and they're walkn' round with gimpped switches.

But as a general rule,  Logitech makes the best mouse... Find something logitech before going anywhere else..

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #113 on: Wed, 28 November 2018, 17:38:29 »
It's really easy to over-solder/ over-heat omrons,  people don't realize this, and they're walkn' round with gimpped switches.

Omron says not to get the tip hotter than 300c and not more than 3 seconds while most people don't even have a temp controlled iron.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #114 on: Thu, 29 November 2018, 12:47:42 »
It's really easy to over-solder/ over-heat omrons,  people don't realize this, and they're walkn' round with gimpped switches.

Omron says not to get the tip hotter than 300c and not more than 3 seconds while most people don't even have a temp controlled iron.


I think they meant don't get the solder hotter than 300C..  but the tip will probably be 340c to 370c which is common soldering temp.

I guesssss the small joints on omron could be accomplished with 300 C tip , but it might be longer than 3 seconds..

But my iron doesn't have a giant heat mass, so.. i guess if them UBER pro irons, 300C is fine.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #115 on: Thu, 29 November 2018, 18:10:25 »
I think they meant don't get the solder hotter than 300C..  but the tip will probably be 340c to 370c which is common soldering temp.
As per the Omron D2F manual:

"When soldering make sure that the temperature of the tip is not higher than 300°c, and complete the soldering within 3 seconds. Do not apply any external force for 1 minute after soldering. Soldering at an excessive high temperature or soldering for more than 3 seconds may deteriorate the characteristics of the switch."
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #116 on: Sun, 06 January 2019, 20:36:25 »
Switched to 1.47 Newton switches for a day,  wow, these are STIFF after using 0.74n for so long..

Offline mikeman

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #117 on: Sat, 02 February 2019, 17:02:46 »
Hi,
I have to replace the switches in my G602. In fact the wheel button does not work, but Ill replace them all. I have problem of identyfing the name of switch/possible replacement of wheel button switch... Anyone knows whst is it?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #118 on: Sat, 02 February 2019, 19:58:53 »
It's probably a PTS645 series switch. I'm not sure of the weight (there is often 2 or 3) and you will need to check pinout and size to be sure, but that is likely it.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #119 on: Sat, 02 February 2019, 21:33:53 »
It's probably a PTS645 series switch. I'm not sure of the weight (there is often 2 or 3) and you will need to check pinout and size to be sure, but that is likely it.

Lots of companies make these,  quite hard to identify, they probably swap between producers between batches as well, because the only Brand critical switch is Omron.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #120 on: Sat, 02 February 2019, 22:51:35 »
It's probably a PTS645 series switch. I'm not sure of the weight (there is often 2 or 3) and you will need to check pinout and size to be sure, but that is likely it.

Lots of companies make these,  quite hard to identify, they probably swap between producers between batches as well, because the only Brand critical switch is Omron.
PTS645, like the D2F is a standardized part. It's not a part number or made by a specific company.
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Offline mikeman

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #121 on: Sun, 03 February 2019, 04:18:24 »
Well, it's not the best source of information, but on aliexp there are pictures (technical ones too) of Omron B3F-1000 and BF3-1002, when searching for wheel button switch g602 and it looks like it would fit, so I have ordered both.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #122 on: Sun, 03 February 2019, 07:30:31 »
Well, it's not the best source of information, but on aliexp there are pictures (technical ones too) of Omron B3F-1000 and BF3-1002, when searching for wheel button switch g602 and it looks like it would fit, so I have ordered both.

as long as the plunger is the same height,  even if the pin doesn't fit, you can just glue it and use small wires. this isn't anything high tech.

Offline AdrianMan

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #123 on: Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:57:41 »
Hey guys :)

I have a Logitech MX master stone and a Logitech G603 wireless.

I was thinking of converting them to use silent switches on the Right/Left Click.

What silent switches do you recommend and are compatible with them to swap the clicky stock ones ?

Thanks !

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #124 on: Fri, 08 March 2019, 07:28:27 »
Hey guys :)

I have a Logitech MX master stone and a Logitech G603 wireless.

I was thinking of converting them to use silent switches on the Right/Left Click.

What silent switches do you recommend and are compatible with them to swap the clicky stock ones ?

Thanks !

Any switches should work in those mice. You just have to match the height and pin schematic.

Even if the pins don't match, as long as the height matches, you can still probably do it by drilling holes and wiring manually.

Offline luns

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #125 on: Mon, 11 March 2019, 17:47:25 »
I did a fair bit of digging into this topic a while ago, but I'm already starting to forget some of my findings. While this thread has wandered in focus a bit, it's probably still the best place for me to note my findings before I forget them further.

First, the switch designations of D2F and D2FC, while they seem similar enough think of as being flavours of the same thing, probably warrants a stronger distinction. Yes, D2F is made in Japan, and D2FC is made in China, but there's more to it than that. The D2F switches are general purpose switches, not targetting specific applications, but are spec'd to try to cover as many different common usages as possible.

The D2FC switches on the other hand, seem to be aimed quite specifically for usage as mouse buttons. There's a presentation for the D2FC-F-K(50M) that specifically introduces it as a Gaming Switch for mouse application. One of the slides points out its footprint is the same as prior D2FC switches, indicating they directly replace earlier D2FC switches that are intended for the same applications (mouses) too.

Regarding switch force, the D2F switches are 150g and 75g for the default and -(01)F variant respectively, with of course some tolerance on these values. Again, being aimed at general purpose usage, these forces are just chosen to cover a wide range of applications. The D2FC switches on the other hand, being specifically for mouses, are tailored to 60g. The have a tolerance of +-15g, so the maximum of this range is 75g, which happens to be the typical force for D2F-(01)F switches. This same number showing up for both switches does not mean they have the same force spec - one is typical, the other maximum. The D2FC is definitely supposed to be lighter than the D2F.

Another distinction is that the D2F is a proper SPDT (3 terminal) switch, whereas the D2FC is only meant to be used as an SPST (2 terminal) switch. The third pin on the D2FC is actually labelled as being a dummy terminal in its mechanical diagrams with the note that it should not be connected to any circuit. The D2F has a contact pad on the NC branch, and has a two-sided contact rivet on the common leaf. The D2FC on the other hand only has a one-sided contact on its common leaf, and the dummy terminal does not have a proper contact pad on it - it's only intended as a mechanical stop and not as an electrical terminal.

This difference may eventually be an issue for me, but we'll see. I modified my mouse with a debounce circuit that puts 0V and 5V on the NO and NC contacts. So far, it's worked great, but if the dummy terminal starts to fail in its NC duty, I'll have unreliable button releases. My switches are already worn to where the NO contact was giving me trouble before I added the debounce circuit, so I'm already beyond my switches' normal lifetime; we'll see how much farther beyond that I can get.

The last difference borne by the datasheets is of the contact ratings. The D2F switches are available with different types of contacts, with the default being 125VAC, 3A (or 1A for -F) silver alloy, and the -01 and -01F switches being Gold alloy rated at 30V, 0.1A. There's also the D2F-5 which is a silver alloy option for 250VAC. The different materials are in the contacts, not the spring as described in other posts.

The Gold alloy is more appropriate for use in mouses, but the D2F-01(F) still isn't ideal. The 0.1A is a maximum load rating, but there is also a corresponding minimum load rating of 1% of that or 1mA. That is to say, if you're using the switch for less than 1mA, the contacts will not necessarily perform reliably to the 2 million cycle spec of the switch. The switches rely on having a certain amount of wetting current to clean the contacts as they open and close, and contact resistance can rise over time if this doesn't happen.

Mouse switches typically would be switching much smaller currents than this, and are thus outside what's recommended for D2F contacts. The D2FC contacts on the other hand are rated for 1mA, and presumably have a much smaller minimum current requirement (I would guess 10uA) that a normal input pull-up should provide.

It's arguable how big a deal the minimum current rating is: without the adequate cleaning current, the switch contact resistance will increase, but with such small currents at play, a mouse can also tolerate much more contact resistance than more typical switching applications. The D2F switches are rated for 2M operations, but this tolerance probably allows them to work to many more cycles as a mouse button than that, whereas D2FC (10M, 20M, 50M) ratings probably account for this already, being their intended application. It's possible even that the contacts are actually the same (aside from the absent NC side), and their different ratings are just a matter of having different definitions for the differing applications.


Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #127 on: Mon, 11 March 2019, 20:21:24 »
I did a fair bit of digging into this topic a while ago,

I'll certainly add some of this, great stuff, and hard to come by as you probably found.

I purposely left off some of your details because for our use it's pretty irrelevant, but when I do update the first post I'll put a link to this post for those who want to read more on it they can.
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Offline Primuds

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #128 on: Sun, 19 May 2019, 08:34:53 »
Anybody know where I can get those ttf switches leslieann mentioned. Really interested in getting some quieter switches.

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #129 on: Sun, 19 May 2019, 09:17:06 »
Anybody know where I can get those ttf switches leslieann mentioned. Really interested in getting some quieter switches.

d2f 01f is also more quiet than the vanilla d2fc. it's a duller thud sounding click vs the thin twig snap on d2fc

Offline pedrohsk1

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #130 on: Sat, 31 August 2019, 14:36:54 »
my post is delet wtf -.-

Offline klimachef

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #131 on: Fri, 18 October 2019, 19:43:12 »
I'm trying to replace the tactile switches for my G600's middle mouse click. How do I find out which ones I need to order?


Also, if you guys have any recommendations for tactile switches please let me know.

Offline ReDsNoTDeAd

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #132 on: Mon, 02 December 2019, 12:04:54 »
I'm trying to replace the tactile switches for my G600's middle mouse click. How do I find out which ones I need to order?
Show Image


Also, if you guys have any recommendations for tactile switches please let me know.

Order both the Chinese ones the mouse uses by default, and some Japanese ones. Try the Japanese ones first and see if the reported extra height is an issue. If not, there you go, if yes, use the Chinese ones and be happy you Guinea pigged a fix for other users.

Offline Sintpinty

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #133 on: Mon, 02 December 2019, 12:10:42 »
Anybody know where I can get those ttf switches leslieann mentioned. Really interested in getting some quieter switches.

TTC golds are available on NovelKeys

Is that what you mean

Offline ReDsNoTDeAd

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #134 on: Tue, 03 December 2019, 22:59:25 »
Just contributing another data point, I replaced the chinese switches in a G502 with some Japanese D2F-01F-T and they sound and feel great.

Both switches measured 6.50 mm on my calipers, so I'm not sure about the rumored height difference with the Japanese switches.

Offline jologskyblues

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #135 on: Mon, 30 December 2019, 03:22:14 »
I was just wondering: are there any known fake or counterfeit d2f-01f switches being sold on eBay and Aliexpress? If so, is there any way to tell?

Offline Keebon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #136 on: Thu, 02 April 2020, 00:50:12 »
Hi, I have a few issue with my mouse button behavior after long hours of photo retouching work with my GPW. I switch my mouse after deathalddar x3 and bought GPW about six month ago. Usually, Razer survive for two years but now I have same symptoms after six month, unwilling double click and cannot hold button. I'm not sure but I guess this is caused by electrification? because the issue is gone when I leave the mouse for an half day or so.

Anyway, I'm about to replace my Ormon switch but this time I ordered Kailh GM 4.0 instead and my question is... Can I lube the micro switch or plastic parts with Krytox 205g to reduce static electricity? or completely Bad idea? or I should even stick with Omron D2FC? Any suggestions will be appreciated.

« Last Edit: Thu, 02 April 2020, 00:55:45 by Keebon »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #137 on: Thu, 02 April 2020, 04:57:42 »
I was just wondering: are there any known fake or counterfeit d2f-01f switches being sold on eBay and Aliexpress? If so, is there any way to tell?
Omron is quite invested in China and even has factories there, therefore anyone trying to make fakes would probably run into trouble, but anything's possible.

unwilling double click and cannot hold button. I'm not sure but I guess this is caused by electrification?
This is a classic sign of a tired leaf spring in the switch, not anything electrical.
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Offline Keebon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #138 on: Thu, 02 April 2020, 05:12:26 »
Thank you for the input.
I understand I should go with Omron.

How about lubing? Do you think it will give little longer life of the contact or a leaf?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #139 on: Thu, 02 April 2020, 09:15:54 »
Thank you for the input.
I understand I should go with Omron.

How about lubing? Do you think it will give little longer life of the contact or a leaf?

If you can open the housing without breaking it , it's possible,

HOWEVER, they're not designed to be opened, so even if it looks ok from the outside, getting into it will reduce the integrity and mechanical tolerance of the switch.

It's better to just put in new ones.

The most important thing in mouse modding / repair is to use a Temperature controlled soldering iron.

These components are not designed to be heated past 1-3 seconds. because the heat melts the the plastic shell.

The traces on mice pcbs are also very thin and covered with very little lacquer.

For completeness , I recommend a temperature controlled iron and a solder sucker.


Offline Keebon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #140 on: Thu, 02 April 2020, 13:51:05 »
hmm, okay... I just don't want to see this symptoms will come back in six month so I guess I will try that anyway. I will report back.
 
I have temp control soldering iron and use to fix a leaf inside case several times so I think I'm will be okay. I just don't know how lube will affect micro switches. Only time will tell I guess..

Thank you very much for your suggestion though.




Offline nevin

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #141 on: Thu, 02 April 2020, 14:07:18 »
there is very little contact between moving parts in these switches compared to normal keyboard switches. the majority of the movement is by the leaf.
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Offline Keebon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #142 on: Thu, 02 April 2020, 15:14:44 »
Yes, leaf itself is a tiny but I see not too small compare to keyboard leafs.

By the way, here is Omron and Kailh GM 4.0 side by side.

239198-0

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #143 on: Thu, 02 April 2020, 20:27:17 »
How about lubing? Do you think it will give little longer life of the contact or a leaf?
I doubt it will accomplish anything.
They are pre-lubed, opening risks destroying them (done this a few times) and in my experience, the leaf is the weakest link and lube will not change that.


There are some things you can do to make the switches last longer, the most important of which is be gentle. Don't mash the buttons or hold them down under lots of force, and even more important, try not to slap/smack them, something many people do. They are designed for zero resting load and only a pound or so peak load, that is very easy to exceed, anything more shortens the lifespan.

There are also mice (mostly from Asus) that feature easy to replace switches and some mice are MUCH easier or more difficult to replace switches on. The Logitech G700 is one of the WORST I have ever tried to do (serious pain in the neck!) while the G900/903 is easy to just as easy as Asus if you buy the right replacement since they use a tiny board that plugs in (you can buy the switch.board combo or just the switch). The downside to the 900.903 compared to Asus is despite easy to swap the switches, Logitech still insisted on putting the screws under the feet. So close, yet so far.
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Offline Keebon

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #144 on: Thu, 02 April 2020, 22:10:40 »
Okay, I probably click 300+ per image for dust removing and other photo retouching work so I do not mash but clicked very fast. Faster I go, mouse start not working sooner so I still think it's static electricity from switch or the mouse sole. I can try swap the PTFE sole.

One thing I didn't know was the you said Omron factory lubed their switches like their keyboard switch. It seems and feels to me those metal leaves are very dry. I'm not sure but may be you are right I should not open a micro switch but I can try some contact cleaner.

I found a video explain why Omron switches are not last long compare to old days so I guess as nature, it will only good for six months. I don't want to change my switches every six month so I will search more options for me...


Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #145 on: Fri, 03 April 2020, 01:41:29 »
Interesting video.*
He raises good points, combined with the leaf failing (I've been killing switches long before voltages fell), it's just asking for problems. I pretty much just assume the switch will last 12-14 months, been that way for years for me. Some last 18, some last 8, but the average is 12-14 months. I keep a decent spare on hand at all times.

As for lube, the majority of the leaf doesn't contact anything, therefore it doesn't need lube. Also, if you lube the wrong place you will lose that crispy snap.


*Now I'm kind of curious about open source mice, with the proliferation of 3d printers, it's more practical than ever.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #146 on: Fri, 03 April 2020, 11:19:48 »
Interesting video.*
He raises good points, combined with the leaf failing (I've been killing switches long before voltages fell), it's just asking for problems. I pretty much just assume the switch will last 12-14 months, been that way for years for me. Some last 18, some last 8, but the average is 12-14 months. I keep a decent spare on hand at all times.

As for lube, the majority of the leaf doesn't contact anything, therefore it doesn't need lube. Also, if you lube the wrong place you will lose that crispy snap.


*Now I'm kind of curious about open source mice, with the proliferation of 3d printers, it's more practical than ever.

How much g4m1n' is LLann doin' per day ?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #147 on: Fri, 03 April 2020, 22:17:22 »
Depends on the time of year and games available. The last week, about an hour and a half per day.

Keep in mind, I also do CAD which can be every bit just as brutal on mice.
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Offline sdmf74

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #148 on: Thu, 28 May 2020, 19:50:12 »
Happy to see this thread is somewhat alive. My Razer Basilisk is starting to double click & drop files while dragging etc.
Does anybody know what switches are inside this mouse? It's my only mouse right now so I dont wanna have to open it up multiple times.

I'm getting ready to buy some switches on digi-key but have no knowledge about switch types. I do have a hakko soldering iron & a soldering station, solder sucker etc.

I think I'm gonna get 2 or 4 each of these just in case:
D2F
D2F-01
D2F-01F
One of the above switches should work as a replacement right???
I'm thinking better to stay away from chinese switches and wanting to try the 150g vs 75g
IE the D2F & D2F-01
Also hoping they have gold plated springs, am I on the right track?

Offline nevin

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #149 on: Thu, 28 May 2020, 20:12:55 »
some notes/images over at overclock
- has razer omron switches - from what i can tell looks like just the green bit & leaf spring are different than standard.
- do some more digging on disassembly, the link on overclock was having issues.

but yes, everything else is pretty straight forward.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #150 on: Thu, 28 May 2020, 20:45:58 »
It's the standard D2fc or a slightly altered version, Microsoft did similar years ago. From what I saw it seems MS basically just had them up the lifespan, which is what we all use now.

You want the 75gram version.
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Offline sdmf74

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #151 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 06:51:44 »
Thanks for the reply guys! Can you elaborate on why the 75g's, Ill check out that link  :thumb:

Oh did I see someone posted a pic and another discussed Kailh & gateron mouse switches? I would be interested in
more info on those and a purchase link or heads up.

Jeez I hope I dont have to keep doing these post verifications for every post for ever  :confused:
« Last Edit: Fri, 29 May 2020, 06:55:11 by sdmf74 »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #152 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 07:14:50 »
Because you don't want a 150g switch on your mouse.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #153 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 10:39:56 »
Because you don't want a 150g switch on your mouse.

Well, some pro gamers use it, because they play with a lift off technique where they swipe and lift the mouse when they get wide.

The heavier switch helps prevent accidental triggering when the mouse air-drops.

Obviously, if a person doesn't need this function, they wouldn't want heavier switches.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #154 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 21:15:09 »
I thought about putting one in the right side of my G900 as it's just ridiculously sensitive, but 150g is a heck of a lot and woudl be even worse on a mouse using hinges.


I've done the lift, never had an issue with false clicks. G900 is the only mouse I've had this issue with and it happens at rest.
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Offline chrisdewit

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #155 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 23:15:29 »
Hi everyone. I found this thread some time back when I was researching what I was sure was a micro switch failure on my Corsair M65. This thread helped me find the switch I wanted and move forward on my repair.

I made a write up about it and threw it up on Imgur.

Thanks for having this thread up.

https://imgur.com/a/SYoRHGR

Also I found this PDF in the process. Check out Page 6 for a laugh.

http://en.chanlin-ele.com/Uploads/201601/568ce2c9eeda4.pdf

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #156 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 02:29:48 »
Guide updated for 2020.
Added info from chrisdewit and Keebon, corrected some other info and tried to make it a bit faster for those just wanting quick answers.


My current advice.
D2F-F or D2F-01-F (in that order) if you want the better sealed Japanese switch which happens to be 75gram (yes, it's stiffer) or if you still want a 60gram switch stick with the D2FC-F-K. Avoid every other D2FC, they just don't work well in modern mice. All are out of the recommended operating range but they are a lot closer than then the common D2FC (the K may or may not be as good as the Japanese D2F).

G900/903 owners (and those having accidental clicks), switch to the Japanese switches, it really helped me with that problem by adding just a bit more resistance.
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Offline downtownHippie

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #157 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 20:44:09 »
There is one less G903 with Chinese switches out there now.  I'd like to thank you all for your help.

Offline Filmore Graves

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #158 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 00:01:43 »

...snip...



Popular Mice and what switches they use:
80% or more of all mice use them, and it's even more common at the high end.

Known to use alternatives:
Corsair
Razer
Steelseries

Exclusively use Omrons or almost exclusively:
Asus
Logitech
Cooler Master
Roccat

With Logitech, the newer and more expensive the mouse, the higher the lifespan rating as well.


...snip...

What do you mean by "alternatives"?

I am asking as I have been in the corsair forums reading up last years or so and it seems the corsair are having huge issues with double clicking and failing switch and I was under the impression they are using the chinese omron switches?

BTW Great guide I am quite happy I ran into this so ty for keeping it going!

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #159 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 02:01:17 »
You're welcome.

Some older Corsair models used some other switches but almost anything true gamer or high end is going to be using Omrons, it's a selling point. It's not that alternatives are rare, they're just rare in the mice we use (i.e. people who care about peripherals). It's VERY, VERY easy to damage these switches, it doesn't help we are now undervolting/amping them, so failure rates are way higher than than the 50m lifespans being promoted because the mice manufacturers are using them out of spec.

Which is another thing, don't let them tell you "they're probably dirty" (looking at you Logitech), it's BS and they know it. They're just brushing you off hoping to get you past warranty. These companies know it's out of spec, but they boxed themselves into a corner promoting these switches, look at how we reacted to Razed abandoning Cherry Switches.


As for alternatives they may be using:
Kinzu, Kana, Himake, Panasonic, Huanos, Zippy, Qiaoh and TTF
Keep in mind, not all of these are perfect direct fits and figuring it out is another rabbit hole.

My advice, buy a mouse you can access the switches in easily (G700 was a NIGHTMARE, G900/903 is pretty easy, Asus has some that make it easy) by checking teardowns and then upgrade to the Japanese switches once one of them dies. I do NOT condone doing it before then but I recommend doing both at the same time. Also check your warranty before doing anything, you may be able to finagle a free one then repair it.
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Offline Filmore Graves

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #160 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 04:25:38 »
Ah yes I watched the hour long video so I can see how out of spec switches could be an issue. It's a little odd how out of spec switches could be a selling point though... lol  The technician in me just cringes when I think about that and how they sell mice for 100$ plus, well at least in my area, with switches they know are no longer appropriate for the circuitry they are using.

That said mice is not something I ever bothered fixing or trying to before I got my first original razer naga mouse and it started having left click issues, I fixed that by placing a thin sheet of metal over the tab that presses on the switch button as the plastic tab had a worn down indent on it.  Eventually I replaced that with a g600 which I just chucked as it was falling apart, I am a bit rough with my mice tbh though lol.  I am actually back to using the naga I had stored away. It works but the top is kind of yucky and gummy.

It's funny you mention Asus I was looking at maybe trying the ASUS ROG Gladius II 12000 DPI which has socketed switches which are simply pull n replace.

Still thinking about it though as I might like to try a Corsair Scimitar RGB Elite but I dunno if I wanna pay 130$ for a mouse that will have china omrons there's also the naga trinity which looks interesting however I definitely want a mouse I can remove the the china omrons when they fail/start messing up and solder in jap omrons.  Soldering isn't a problem for me.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #161 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 04:51:44 »
I dunno if I wanna pay 130$ for a mouse that will have china omrons
Not sure any come with Japanese Omrons pre-installed, but you should get a year or more from the Chinese ones.

I look at the Asus Galdius all the time and I always come back to one simple truth... I use wireless and for that no one beats Logitech, say what you will but their wireless systems are far and away the best out there.

By the way, while you do have to remove the feet and screws you can buy plug in Omrons for the g900/903 as well. They're mounted on tiny daughter boards that plug in. Not quite the Asus method but a step in the right direction. If only they wouldn't hide the screws under the feet. So close...
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | GMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #162 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 06:03:07 »
Also with mouse pcbs, make sure you put something tough under the pins when you plug them in, sometimes it can pop the pin and break the trace.

Tp4 has done it,  it's not hard to fix becuz Tp4 = Xpert Wizard Lvl Mouser , but for anyone else, it could be trouble.

Offline Filmore Graves

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Re: Definitive Omron Switch Guide for Mice
« Reply #163 on: Mon, 24 August 2020, 10:35:22 »
I dunno if I wanna pay 130$ for a mouse that will have china omrons
Not sure any come with Japanese Omrons pre-installed, but you should get a year or more from the Chinese ones.

I look at the Asus Galdius all the time and I always come back to one simple truth... I use wireless and for that no one beats Logitech, say what you will but their wireless systems are far and away the best out there.

By the way, while you do have to remove the feet and screws you can buy plug in Omrons for the g900/903 as well. They're mounted on tiny daughter boards that plug in. Not quite the Asus method but a step in the right direction. If only they wouldn't hide the screws under the feet. So close...

Yeah the gladius comes with two extra jap omron's which is quite appealing and I don't care about wireless but I can see how it could be a priority for many and yeah I do not like screws hidden under feet or labels etc either!



Also with mouse pcbs, make sure you put something tough under the pins when you plug them in, sometimes it can pop the pin and break the trace.

Tp4 has done it,  it's not hard to fix becuz Tp4 = Xpert Wizard Lvl Mouser , but for anyone else, it could be trouble.


Thanks for the tip! I should be all good as I have been soldering for awhile, My first full time job was doing audio (cassette tapes) and vcr repair!  It's good to know ahead of time that they are fragile in mice and require an extra soft touch though. :)


Oh btw is the captcha image verification thing something we always have to do in these forums or is it just for newbies with newly created accounts?
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 August 2020, 10:37:55 by Filmore Graves »