Author Topic: 60% boards - what's the attraction?  (Read 87044 times)

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Offline Matias

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60% boards - what's the attraction?
« on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 08:07:13 »
Been trying to get my head around why people like 60% keyboards so much.

Is it more than just the size?

Arrow keys would seem to be a problem, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.  You also sacrifice PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End.

Are they more popular with PC users than Mac?  Or are they more a Linux thing?

What makes a great 60% keyboard?

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 08:09:18 »
So are you saying you want to make a 60% ALPS board if there is enough interest?

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 08:11:43 »
I like the size and I think that the function layers are clever. Especially with programmable layers like the Poker 2 has, you can really customize and change the layout how you like. I find that the layout is comfortable for my hands and shoulders and is just great for typing. When I write reviews, it's just great to sit down with my Pure keyboard with Whites and type out a couple thousand words without any frills. Just feels good and is something different.

Edit: I use PC for what it's worth.
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 November 2013, 17:09:57 by CPTBadAss »

Offline TheFlyingRaccoon

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 08:13:23 »
Well first of all, there are functions layers so you have every key that's on a full sized keyboard. I like this much better as I can access every key without moving my hand off the homerow, much more efficient.
Secondly, the size very convenient. It does not take up much space on a desk, and I can easily take a 60% board on the go.

EDIT: I didn't realize who posted this! If Matias makes a 60% Alps board I will love you forever <3
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 November 2013, 08:15:49 by TheFlyingRaccoon »
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Offline kod

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 08:39:07 »
Matias your TKL layout is pretty obviously the best non-split layout available.  Symmetrical modifier key layout, compact, still has arrow cluster.

I don't think it'd be worth your while to mess with 60% layouts, they aren't going to be meaningfully more compact than what you have.

Offline i3oilermaker

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 08:41:12 »
Ask Mashby :)

I love mine because of the programmable layer and the space saving.

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 08:43:45 »
When I had my Poker I loved it for its portability factor. I brought that thing everywhere that I needed a keyboard.
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Offline BlueBär

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 09:16:32 »
I love my 60% for leaving me so much space on my desk. I usually have quite a bit of stuff laying around on my desk and if I have to do something on my desk, I can just put my keyboard under my monitor on its stand, which fits perfectly.

Offline nappi11

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 09:57:52 »
It saves space and it's easy to take from home to school, currently few times a week.
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Offline yicaoyimu

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 11:19:18 »
Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use arrow keys and home/page up/F1-12/etc very often. So the lack of some keys is not a problem to me. The reason why I love 60% board is: a. perfect symmetry, and b. TKL boards have a huge part of the case exposed and I prefer 60% style, where keycaps take almost all of the surface.
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Offline spiceBar

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 15:25:14 »
Mouse closer to the hands, all the time. In turn, the right arm does not have to reach far for the mouse.

Being able to put the keyboard exactly in the center of the monitor => better posture.

Saving space on the desk, obviously.

Generally speaking, we are sick and tired of those huge keyboards, and we have come to think that the smaller it is, the better.

The problem is the layout.

If you want some inspiration, here is a layout I have designed to allow both the presence of dedicated arrow keys AND the use of standard keycaps:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47888.msg1023617#msg1023617

It would also be great to have a switch that would allow Ctrl+LeftArrow to do Home, Ctrl+RightArrow to do End, Ctrl+DownArrow to do Page Down and Ctrl+UpArrow to do Page Up. Home/End/PgUp/PgDn on a 60% are generally very badly designed. Sometimes they require Fn + an arrow (which is acceptable but not that convenient, because we already have to combine the arrows with Ctrl and Shift very often) and sometimes they are randomly splattered on the keyboard, which is very bad.

Many people are used to the fact that Ctrl + right or left arrow "moves faster" to the right or the left, so it is not hard to get that Ctrl+right does End and Ctrl+left does Home. And BTW it's exactly how it works on a Mac already, so you could allow PC and Linux users to do the same if they wish.

I think the secret of the success for a 60% keyboard is to give CHOICE. You need a set of switches at the back of the keyboard and allow them to change the position of Ctrl, CapsLock, the mandatory Fn key (it could be on CapsLock, on the Win key, on one of the Alt keys...), the arrows (like the design I suggest, or Poker-X-like, or HHKB-like, or maybe WASD for those who like it...), of the way to do Home/End/PgUp/PgDn, and so on. Allow them to do something useful with the "App" or "Menu" key (located at the left of the right Ctrl). For most people, this key is totally useless!

Include a few additional keycaps to accommodate for these settings: if I swap Ctrl and CapsLock, I need a big Ctrl and a small CapsLock (these were included with my Realforce). Provide a big Fn key in case I want to put it on CapsLock.

If the problem is that most customers will not understand why you provide additional keycaps, or will not be able to remove keycaps without breaking them, don't provide them with the keyboard. Charge some extra for them for those who know how to do it.

I don't think a switch on the back of the keyboard, a software to manage these and 4 or 5 additional keycaps will cost you much. On the other hand, more people will be able to say yes to this keyboard if they know that their favorite layout is available.

Additionally, if you manage to make it a STANDARD layout (by this I mean that all the keys have the same sizes than on the alphabetical cluster of a standard PC keyboard), you allow people to customize their keycaps. Most customers won't notice, but you'll get a lot of free PR for it.

Be smart. Make a smart 60% keyboard that will please both your basic users and the most advanced ones. Such a keyboard does not exist yet (not on a large scale at least).

Offline johndavis33

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 15:34:14 »
Portability is a big one, they're easy to throw in a bag and use with a laptop on the go. If one has a nice fn layer, then you don't have to move your hand to access things like cursors and other function keys. A lot of people also find it more ergonomic to have their mouse closer to their keyboard. I don't know about operating systems for all 60% boards, but I know a lot of people who use the HHKB use linux. Then again, I know a lot of people who like to have their mouse closer to their keyboard are gamers, so that would imply windows use. Personally, I game a lot and I prefer to my mouse hand to be farther from my keyboard hand, so I don't mind a full sized.

BTW, if a certain company were to ever make a wireless 60% with alps and a trackpoint that I could use with my thinkpad running linux, I'd give all of my money for that keyboard.
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Offline Britney Spears

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 15:35:38 »
... as I can access every key without moving my hand off the homerow, much more efficient.

This!
The portability, the amount of space saved on the desk are all nice too but what makes me a fan of 60% boards is the fact that you can reach every key without moving your hands away from the home row too much.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 15:37:19 »
So much desk space. And my desk is TINY.
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Offline 00zeRO

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 15:48:42 »
I'm one of those weirdos that likes my full board...

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Offline kgrad5

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 15:54:57 »
The attraction is the compactness.

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 16:03:27 »
Looks and comfort.  I use a mac, too.

Offline kenmai9

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 16:05:36 »
Page up and Page Down are remedied with an extension I use on Chrome that brings you to the top or bottom of the page. Its called Scroll to Top.

As for page down/page up... that's what the mouse scroll is for. You could also have a function layer to provide all of these things.
I think you should look at the Leopold 660C/M or HHKB for inspiration. Those are two pretty great boards with layouts that people seem to like. Then there's the Poker.. which I tried to like, but ultimately I like the 660 more.

Offline Matias

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 16:59:08 »
Thanks for all the great commentary!

I think I get it now -- though don't let that stop anyone from posting their thoughts.  The more the merrier.

It seems that arrow keys are the big issue.  For me, I'm totally happy using IJKL and an Fn key in place of Caps Lock, but that might be too radical.  We did a keyboard like that a few years ago, and it wasn't popular at all.  Of course, it wasn't a 60% board or mechanical.

Is an embedded number pad essential?

With regard to function keys, I mostly use them for audio controls. I guess the if you are really into function keys, you're not going to go for a 60%.

Offline ithinkimkorean

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 17:06:21 »
I think if someone really uses the number pad often they wouldn't use a 60% or choose to have a dedicated pad or on the side. Other than saving space, I like the overall compact look and feel of it.

Offline divito

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 17:08:47 »
Personally, sacrificing arrows and the 6-key are a little too much, which is why I'm more attracted to the 75%-ish variety, like the Race or Keycool 84, which hopefully I can add to my collection soon.

I don't think an embedded numpad would be essential, as I'm not sure anyone would add those to layers. As ithinkimkorean said, they'd be full size users, or have a dedicated pad for those purposes. I know with myself, moving from my Das to this QFS TKL has been an adjustment, as to me, entering numbers on the Num Pad is far easier and efficient for me that way.

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Offline spiceBar

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 17:09:52 »
(snipped)
As for page down/page up... that's what the mouse scroll is for.
(snipped)

Definitely not. In an editor, as soon as you need to move up or down more than 2 or 3 pages, scrolling with the mouse begins to be extremely inefficient. You need PageUp/PageDn. And anyway you should not even have to touch the mouse to work in an editor to begin with.

Offline BlueBär

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 17:12:12 »
An embedded numberpad is usually not essential in my opinion, but even less if you offer a dedicated one ;)

Offline spiceBar

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 17:28:39 »
An embedded numpad is an annoyance. The keys are already fairly overloaded.

That being said I'm contradicting myself. I said the best is to give the user the choice. So let's go for an embedded numpad that I would not use, but I'm not your only potential customer (wait, who just said "fortunately"?).

Offline Matias

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 17:50:55 »
Sorry, I should've added that for the embedded number pad, I'm operating on the assumption that PC users need it for doing Alt-numberpad symbols.

It seems that the FC660C has most of the problems of 60% pretty much solved. The layout is pretty similar to our Mini Quiet Pro layout with the function keys removed.

Is the FC660C well regarded?  Anything you don't like about it?

Offline yicaoyimu

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 17:56:55 »
Sorry, I should've added that for the embedded number pad, I'm operating on the assumption that PC users need it for doing Alt-numberpad symbols.

It seems that the FC660C has most of the problems of 60% pretty much solved. The layout is pretty similar to our Mini Quiet Pro layout with the function keys removed.

Is the FC660C well regarded?  Anything you don't like about it?

The spacebar of FC660 is a huge pain.
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Offline Matias

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 18:26:20 »
The spacebar of FC660 is a huge pain.

Why pain?

Offline BlueBär

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 18:28:42 »
Anything you don't like about it?

Please something different or more useful than insert in the top right and if possible more standard sized keys.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 18:37:00 »
Matias....  Don't jump into the lion's den...

It makes no sense to make more boards with minute differences  in face of huge competition..


Meanwhile.. Ergodox-split layout has NO competition...   

Just put the thumb key 1.5cm closer to the main cluster..

Slap... GAMER... 1000hz... Macro.. on the box...

AND you've got it made....

Offline yicaoyimu

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 18:41:51 »
The spacebar of FC660 is a huge pain.

Why pain?

It has a very uncommon size or very uncommon stem positions. I can't remember which.
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Offline AKmalamute

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 18:43:01 »
Slap GAMER ... 1000hz ... Macro on
New! Shiny! Macro-giga-gamer, The keyboard with Red keys Both INSIDE and OUTSIDE!!!!
Then put red MX inside, and red keycaps ... the Ctrl-Alt-Del version could reverse the legend/base colors ...

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Offline johndavis33

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 19:08:46 »
Most TKL boards tend to do well without an embedded numb pad. It's more of a rarity than an essential in 60, 75, and TKL boards.

Kind of off topic, but I've always wondered, how come I haven't seen a board with a numb pad to the left of the main block as opposed to the traditional position of to the right? Most people I've seen with dedicated numb pads place it there, and it makes sense because it allows you to keep your mouse closer to the keyboard while still giving you the benefit of a full numb pad.
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Offline Dubsgalore

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 20:05:14 »
Looks, Size, Comfort
something about them being so small...
It's literally right next to my mouse so I don't have to reach at all
also it's perfectly centered with my monitor, and I like it that way..
I've put a ton into the GH60's too, and hopefully everything will arrive in the next few months so I can really enjoy it all
I've been on my poker daily since march..so I could really use a little break  :))

Offline spiceBar

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 21:03:13 »
Most TKL boards tend to do well without an embedded numb pad. It's more of a rarity than an essential in 60, 75, and TKL boards.

Kind of off topic, but I've always wondered, how come I haven't seen a board with a numb pad to the left of the main block as opposed to the traditional position of to the right? Most people I've seen with dedicated numb pads place it there, and it makes sense because it allows you to keep your mouse closer to the keyboard while still giving you the benefit of a full numb pad.

The Keyboard Company has keyboards with the numpad on the right side.

I put my numpad to the right of my mouse, which is at the right of my keyboard. But I never use it! :)

Offline nickr

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 22:17:08 »
Are they more popular with PC users than Mac?  Or are they more a Linux thing?

I can't imagine that users of any keyboard format could be grouped by operating system usage.  It's not uncommon nowadays for people to switch between PC, Linux or Mac daily (either virtually or between home and work).  It seems to be mainly a space or portability concern.  I like it because it's small enough to keep my desk as clutter-free as possible while not hampering productivity.

Offline spiceBar

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 23:13:44 »
Sorry, I should've added that for the embedded number pad, I'm operating on the assumption that PC users need it for doing Alt-numberpad symbols.

It seems that the FC660C has most of the problems of 60% pretty much solved. The layout is pretty similar to our Mini Quiet Pro layout with the function keys removed.

Is the FC660C well regarded?  Anything you don't like about it?

The FC660C is very well regarded. There was a thread recently about the two keyboards (only two) that people would recommend, and you could see it recommended quite often. Also, when someone asks for advice for a 60% keyboard, you see it mentioned every single time.

However, there is a keyboard out there that is also mentioned all the time and that is so well regarded that the manufacturer can basically put any price tag on it and people will keep purchasing it.

Of course, you know what I'm talking about: the HHKB.

To achieve such desirability, you cannot go with the FC660C form factor: the FC660C is larger than a 60%. The HHKB is a 60% that actually has unused space on it.

Now you should probably ask yourself what makes the HHKB so desirable, because that's the one to beat.

Fortunately, there are plenty of threads talking about it, and they are filled with nuggets of information.

If think the key words are:
- Minimalism
- Symmetry
- Status (which is a result of the above and the fact that it's expensive)
- Feelings: how it feels to the fingers and how it SOUNDS ("Thock")

If you are looking for a mass-market 60% keyboard, maybe you can't go that route. Otherwise there may be an opportunity there.

Well... I'm not sure what you are after by asking these questions, but you certainly got our attention.

Offline Britney Spears

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 05 November 2013, 23:52:57 »

If think the key words are:
- Minimalism
- Symmetry
- Status (which is a result of the above and the fact that it's expensive)
- Feelings: how it feels to the fingers and how it SOUNDS ("Thock")


I would add
- a well-though-out function layer and key layout

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 00:11:13 »
No dedicated arrow cluster :(

Offline Surnia

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 00:45:50 »
attraction is purely on size. My gf needed a small board to carry to class with her along with a win8 tablet: mechanical or otherwise there aren't many boards that are as small as the 60% form factor, without going stupid on key spacing. We chose the Poker II for her, and I'm constantly surprised at how dinky that thing is.

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Offline Mystery AKA.NastyFan

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 01:02:30 »
DIVERSITY:D
 I mean that 60% is easy to make different nice lookings

Offline Belfong

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 01:41:22 »
I use a MacBook Air at work and when I know I need to sit down and do a lot of typing, replying emails, blog, I will pull out the Poker 2. It's small size made it compact and easy to take out and keep.

The other thing is that 60% is also relatively cheap so, I tend to like to mod it more with keycaps, colours, etc. The risk of me breaking the switch stem or something is minimal because it is cheap and I can get another one.

Also, I agree the lack of arrow key is a pain when I am doing Excel but I don't want a FC660C layout that made the keyboard bigger. So what Poker 2 did which is to do a Fn_Space to TOGGLE the WASD as arrow key is a great alternative. This means that if I were to press FN-W, it is up. FN-A means left but this requires two key press. If I press FN-Space, it turned WASD as arrow key so I don't need to depress FN-W again. Smart!

And I also like FN-; for Home and FN-> for End which is not available in the Mac Book Air. Very useful to jump to the top or bottom of a forum thread.

I also find Matias Mini Quiet Pro to be slightly bigger compare to Poker 2 so it may not be as portable. This is solely based on photo opinion. Have not touched a Mini before.

I guess keep it small size, light and cheap and you will have a winner.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 November 2013, 02:23:59 by Belfong »
 

Offline hasu

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 03:26:43 »
OS X was excellent enough off the shelf it has bash, zsh , vim, enacts, screen and GNU tools, IIRC. While Windows is the most miserable among major OS's for 60% user.

Offline Oobly

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 07:44:37 »
Easy to transport, frees up desk space, close to the mouse, less hand travel to the edit keys / arrow keys.

I would suggest making it completely programmable (with the programming software in all 3 major OS flavours, and the mappings stored to the keyboard firmware), so the user can choose their layout (even the base alpha key / modifiers layout), with a few defaults to get them started. Allow any key to be mapped to any char / symbol / function. For instance the Win keys / Meta keys can be disabled by leaving the mapping blank, mapped to enable function layer, etc.

Backlighting with adjustable brightness would be nice and help to differentiate and sell them, but it's not that important to me personally.

I may actually try Alps style switches if a 60% board is released with them ;)
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Belfong

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60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 09:26:01 »
No backlight please because otherwise the key caps will be painted and coated with matte.

A no frills, no gimmick 60% like Poker 2 with solid keycap is the way to go for me.

And if it's alps, I will not hesitate to replace the Poker 2!! Yum!!
 

Offline TheSoulhunter

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:12:33 »
Ergonomics...

42886-0
42888-1
42890-2

It's the only way to have alpha cluster center to the screen without moving the mouse too far to the right!

Offline Findecanor

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:51:26 »
Matias your TKL layout is pretty obviously the best non-split layout available.  Symmetrical modifier key layout, compact, still has arrow cluster.
I disagree. Not for the PC. The Home and End keys are missing. Under the Mac, the Home and End keys take you to the beginning and end of a document, but in PC text editors, the keys take you to the beginning and end of a line. I am a programmer under Linux and Windows, and I use these keys a lot.

An embedded numberpad is usually not essential in my opinion, but even less if you offer a dedicated one ;)
If you have a mode for an embedded numpad, then the keys on the left side of the keyboard are normally unused.
To put them to good use: why not make the left side a half-keyboard in that mode?
🍉

Offline johndavis33

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 15:38:12 »
Are they more popular with PC users than Mac?  Or are they more a Linux thing?

I can't imagine that users of any keyboard format could be grouped by operating system usage.  It's not uncommon nowadays for people to switch between PC, Linux or Mac daily (either virtually or between home and work).  It seems to be mainly a space or portability concern.  I like it because it's small enough to keep my desk as clutter-free as possible while not hampering productivity.

I think that some users would find their preference in keyboard format dictacted by their OS. For example, I know a lot of linux users like having the control key where the caps lock key is, while that format choice may not be so popular with users of other OS's.
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Offline tricheboars

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 15:43:26 »
Matias please make an Alps version of the 60%.  As someone who owns 4 Cherry MX 60% boards already i will buy #5 if it is made by you.
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Offline AKmalamute

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 16:47:22 »
+1, but I think I've said that elsewhere.

Tricheboars, if you watch the IC/GB subforums, Spirit should be starting a group buy for an alps compatible 60% board "soon" -- might be worth getting in on it when it arrives.

HHKB-lite2, Dvorak user

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: 60% boards - what's the attraction?
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 17:03:50 »
Matias please make an Alps version of the 60%.  As someone who owns 4 Cherry MX 60% boards already i will buy #5 if it is made by you.

that's not good enough...

We'd need a pledge from ALL of GH for their trouble to be profitable...